Midwest Circle Track Racers, Lend Me Your Ears (And Your Ideas) . . . .

Around here, the tracks stay tacky all night long early in the season,
but get consistently dry slick during the summer. Not as bad for the lower classes, because their features are earlier.

 

A local track tried a new class a few years ago, minimum weight,
no quickchange, or power steering, no aluminum wheels, etc.

NO rules for body, or chassis layout, no engine set back limit.
So you had everything from souped up street stocks, dirt late models,
and converted DIRT Modifieds, one guy had a Sprint Car wing on top.

The trick was, the engine rules were the same as the street stock class.
I think they were allowed bigger tires.

Could have been cool, but it didn't really catch on, and got replaced by the Mod Lites.

 

IMCA didn't used to have a minimum weight (I'm talking like ten years ago), but now IIRC their minimum is 2,450 LBS.

Our A modified minimum was 2,500 LBS back when the track was NASCAR sanctioned. Then they went outlaw and the minimum dropped to 2,300 LBS, and then we stopped running there regularly.

No minimum weight IS crazy.

I'd like to see a good hefty minimum like I posted before, 2,500 LBS no matter what, or 7 LBS per Cube if you go with a motor bigger than 350 CID.

Anyone can build a car that will weigh less than 2,800 LBS, with no funkiness or trick anything involved. 2,500 LBS isn't too hard to get under, unless the driver is a tub-o-guts like me (then it becomes more difficult).

An open wheel car with a quickchange and no body panels to speak of will be a lot easier to get down to 2,500 without any funny business though.

 

Around here, it depends a lot on what the weather does the week before.

If it had rained in the preceding week, the track would be sticky all night (unless the sprints were running with us).

If it hadn't rained in the preceding week, the track would slick off by intermission, and be shiny black by the end of our feature.

If it rained the night before, the track would be a damned boggy mess, and there'd be a lot of broken shit at the end of the night. Fast as hell, but hard on parts and people. Big ruts and chuck holes to race through, the damned car would spend half the lap up in the air. You'd feel like you'd been beaten with a bar of soap in a sock when it was all over with too.

 

First off, apologies for turning my posts into a kind of rant... It seems like every season out in CA there would be some new class that divided an already shrinking pool of teams. Ever heard of Altamont? they would run a full program for 5 or 6 divisions every weekend and have 5 cars in each field. Their solution to falling car counts? Start a new class! It was ridiculous....

I am in total agreement with your concept; but I think the key to success is making the cars FAST, and DIFFERENT than what the fans are used to seeing. Open wheel "coupes" with upright bodies and modern components seems like a good recipe.

I would personally go with a lighter minimum weight than 2500. It can be achieved on a small chassis without a lot of trick stuff, and it reduces the amount of ballast needed and the advantage of hanging several hundred pounds of lead in the "right spots". Also, when you hit something, you don't hit as hard...

I wish you the best of luck in getting this going. Keep us posted!

 

Yes, it's entirely possible that the minimum can be lighter and still not make the costs go up.

I figured that the best way to set the minimum would be to build one without all the trick stuff, just the parts you want to use, and then see what it weighs with a driver in it.

That'll tell us everything we need to know about what the car will weigh, and then you write the rules to reflect this. Maybe we end up with 6 LBS per Cube, I dunno, we'd just have to see how that plays out.

I also agree about the weight mitigating the damage from "kinetic interruptions" (to put it euphemistically ).

Bumping into shit always sucks, but the heavier cars do hit harder. At some point on the way down the weight scale though, you go from just hitting stuff, to hitting stuff and then vaulting into the air and tumbling for hundreds of feet.

Sprint cars are obviously under that threshold, while modifieds are above it. Late models are fairly close to the break over point though. It takes some mitigating circumstances to get a late model up into the air, but they make the trip considerably more often than modifieds do.

 

On pavement out in Tucson we went to weight break rules. So the guys with the biggest bank did not win. We had Crate motors running against built tour motors and everything in between. You got weight breaks for running cheaper shocks, straight rail vs perimeter chassis, Stock front clip big springs vs fab clip coil overs etc. There was a big swing in cars. and almost every type of set up won at some point.

I won't not try to create something new but rather something that will get the cars out of garages and fields out to the track.

 

I hope the photo of my car makes the thread. I love this thread.

I had a long winded post, but I'll condense the idea.

Not many people are able or willing to fabricate a complete car like the one I have built here. We race these things out in Nevada and the class is dying for lack of participation.

A real popular class here is the Dwarf. It's a ready built car, but the engines are expensive.

A ready built car is the answer, but who is going to build one in quantity with no guarantee of sales? I like a car that looks like a race car: sprint, midget, old time supermodified.

I was raised in MO and watched the supers run at Olympic Stadium, Sedalia, Marshall, Knoxville, Lakeside, etc. Bring 'em back!

By the way my car is only 5 races old and won the last 3 going away. Why? We have 2000lb wt rule; I weigh 2380 and am still at least 300 lbs lighter than anyone.

 

God love you man!

You've got the car I'm aiming at.

Ready made cars could be done. Hell, I could build them. Not a bunch at a time, but they could be done. I've got all the tools and the requisite skills.

If having to build a chassis is a problem for some people, that's something that can be overcome.

That's not really where I was looking for this to go, but it's one way to overcome the lack of fab skills for people who still want to race.

If the class were to take off, other manufacturer's would sprout up just like they have for late models and modifieds.

I've got a few questions:

1) What kind of tires are you running? I'd like to know the width and diameter on each corner, the manufacturer, model number/type, and compound if you know it.

2) What kind of motor are you running? What's everyone else running?

3) What kind of rear suspension are you running? What's everyone else running?

4) What kind of front suspension are you running? What's everyone else running?

5) What's that body made from? Did you make it yourself, or did you buy it? If you bought it, who did the shaping?

6) What kind of transmission, clutch, and rear end are you running? What's everyone else running?

7) You say that things are winding down, why do you think that is? Is it only because you have to roll your own chassis, or is there something else going on too?

Thanks for participating, I knew someone somewhere had to be running something close to what I was envisioning.

 

Anyone out there in good with a promoter inside this area?

Anyone?

If not, I fear I'll have to go become best friends with one, and that's a lot of trouble.

 

Anyone out there with a newish Rocket Late Model Chassis want to measure the A-Frame lengths and hub to hub width of their front suspension, and the hub to hub width on your rear end housing and the offset for me?

I'm working on a chassis design, but I don't have any good info on how most late models are laid out as far as suspension goes.

I don't want to specify suspension geometry that can't be replicated with widely available used parts.

 

I don't have the whole solution, but... We have a class here (In Oregon) that is a limited late model sorta deal. We run 4 cylinder late models.



The frames are all old late model frames (Rayburn swing arm style mostly). So it is a smiple matter to find an outdated car, and rebody it. It is cost friendly, and it is fast. We have no minimum weight rule, so the cars weigh 1500-1600. Makes them as fast as the V8 guys. And we allow the big tires they use, so they aren't hard to control. It might cost a little more up front, but for the most part you can get a couple seasons out of a body & tires.

If I were writing the rules, I would pick a stock 4-cylinder that could be gotten from a wrecking yard. Crate motors are nice, but they are still expensive. Junk yard new 4-cylinders are under $1,000. My preference would be a Chevy Ecotec, even has an Offy sorta look to it, and can race for years without a rebuild. I've ran mine for 3 years, and the head has never been off the block.

I wouldn't do a latemodel though. You need something that stands out for the crowd. The car itself would have to be light to make the racing fast enough to be exciting to watch. An old looking non-downtube midget would be cool.

Might spec a minitruck rearend with a set gear ratio to keep RPM's in check. And make any engine modifications less effective. Still keep big enough tires to do the job.

I hate claim rules, myself, but I also dislike crate motor rules. As any racer knows, chassis setup is more important than the last couple of HP. I think the biggest thing, is to keep the purse structure so that winning isn't about the $$$. Keep the payout going clear thru the field so everyone that starts can get back some of their entry & tow money.

 

Late model tires with a four cylinder is one hell of a lot of rubber for not a lot of horsepower.

Those things must drive like they're on rails. Do they ever break the rear tires loose? I know the thing won't have enough HP to need that wing, WTH is that all about? lol

I do like the topless thing though, I definitely think I'm going that way. Roofs are for garages, baby.

I dunno man, but for some reason, a long wheelbase car with a four cylinder just doesn't say "race car" to me.

Around here, they run a limited Modified that they call "B Modified", which runs a 2 bbl carb and gasoline, heavier weight, steel heads, etc. They don't make much power, say less than 400 HP, and they're not real challenging to drive.

The things are momentum cars, which means they're usually confined to a single line up around the top to keep them wound up. They can't drop down to the low line to pass because if you bog the motors, it's like throwing out an anchor.

I suspect these four cylinder cars would be very similar in that regard.

A race car needs sufficient torque to get off the corner on the low line in a manner that makes it competitive with the momentum line.

When you've got a lot of tire and no torque to speak of, the moment line eats the rest alive, because the tires will let you roll that high line as fast as you can stand it (basically pucker vs lap time), but the motor won't pull enough to run the low line in a comparable fashion.

That makes for single line racing, which either gets boring or rough real fast.

IMO, four cylinders are for midgets, full stop, end of line.

Anything with a wheelbase over 94" needs a V8 in it, IMO.

 

We get a lot of side by side racing. The light weight is the key. There is enough torque if you keep them lite. As for the tires, you can hang the rear out a bit. It shure ain't WFO all the time. The cars do need to be small though. We have even looked at smaller. There is quite a winter indoor season here in the northwet. The tracks are set up in the horse arenas, and are just the right size for midgets or mini sprints. They have tried pro 4 cars, but they are too big to pass.

Come up with something small and easy to store & transport. Cheap to maintain (not tearing it up every week). And you'd have a winner.

The wing is like the topless thing. It sets us apart from the other classes. Trying to go for the tunner look that the younger guys (sponsors, spectators) can relate to.

Eric

 

The TQ/Quarter Midget thing never really caught on around here.

I've only ever seen the one track that ran Mini-Sprints and they didn't run them weekly.

There's only so light you can go without things getting to be very expensive very quickly.

It's easy to say light weight, but it is much harder to pull it off in the world.

Now, that said, the shorter the wheelbase, the more relative the term "light weight" becomes.

Lightweight for a DLM is like 2,000 LBS, and that costs some serious money to get down to.

Lightweight for a Sprint Car is like 1,000 LBS and that takes even more serious money to achieve.

Plus, when the cars get too small, the big guys are at a huge disadvantage, 'cause you can only take off so much ass.

Fat guys can lose weight, or I should say it's possible, but someone who is 6'-6" tall is never going to weigh what a guy who's 5'-2" is.

It's gonna cost that big guy a lot more money to get his car down to 2,000 LBS than it would that 5'-2" guy.

Conversely, it is a lot easier (and cheaper) for the big guy to build a 2,500 LB car, and the 5'-2" guy to hang lead where it benefits him most until his car also weighs 2,500 LBS.

I've seen big guys race sprint cars, and they have to put those race cars on like pants. I got the chance to drive a 410 winged car once, and I couldn't fit in the damned cage. Their seat was too small for my considerable ass, and my Kirkey wouldn't go between the rails. lol I'd have to have some kind of "wide body" sprint chassis maybe, I dunno, but I digress.

Besides not physically fitting inside them, stuffing big guys into little cars with little cages is begging to end up damaged (you, not the car). The best friend you've got in a serious lick is some space between your body and the bar that's absorbing said lick. The closer you are to the cage, the more chance you have of absorbing some of that energy with your pink and fleshy bits. In a contest like that, steel and concrete always win.

Also, IMO at least (and we could run the numbers to check, but my gut tells me I'm right) that it is cheaper to build a 450 HP V8 than it is to build a 250-300 HP four banger. Hell, if for no other reason than the four banger parts are not made by too many people (if anyone at all). When's the last time you saw a rotating assembly for an EcoTech for sale somewhere?

Don't even get me started on EFI on a dirt race car.

 

Check this out;
www.sdavhotrods.com
See how it's done down under !

 

They look awesome, but I think you all may be confused about which way you're supposed to turn.

 

OK, here's a teaser of what I'm thinking chassis wise:



104" wheebase, 90" max width, 11" IMCA Late Model Spec Tires

I have a rule set that I'm working on, but this is a side side deal, so paying work comes first, and I haven't spent a lot of time on them yet.

Just putting that out there to show you guys what I'm thinking.

No roofs, no wings, no fenders, no scoops, no aero, period.

Whatcha think?

 

Sit in the middle with the driveshaft between your legs ? If so, I like it.

Now just put an axle and buggy spring across the front.....and rear.

 

Yes, center steer, open drive line between the legs (inside an appropriate cage like device, of course).

This one is IFS, but a solid axle with a buggy spring or coil overs would be an easy change. Just don't pinch the lower rails in the front like I did.

I want guys to be able to buy and strip an older Late Model roller, and those are all IFS, so that's what I went with (IFS will be faster too, and this is a race car, so style only counts for so much).

That model isn't finished, obviously, but I got it to the point where you could tell what it's supposed to look like, so I thought I'd throw it up and bump the thread at the same time.

I'm a ninja like that.

 

I built 13 cars like this (all with different bodies) in the early '80's. 2" X 4" main rails, buggy springs at both ends (a few guys ran coils), and iron motors (355" limit, 4412 2bbl on a cast intake). At 1800 lbs. and a with 12" wide right rear tire they would lap an IMCA mod. in an 8 lap heat race on a tacky 1/4 mile oval.....and for a LOT less money. A couple guys used IFS but the axles were cheaper and easier to set up.

 

Those are awesome, and pretty much what I'm shooting for, sans roof and side posts.

That pic from Winchester is on the pavement high banks there, right? The last one looks like a dirt car though. Did you run the same cars on dirt and pavement?

I'm mostly worried about dirt ('cause there are only two paved tracks in all of MO). Dirt racing is what I know, and it's what I love. I'll go watch a pavement race any day, but I don't really get that urge to be out there driving like I do when I go to a dirt track to just watch.

Anyway, the plan is build a car that is at least as fast as the current crop of modifieds, but cheaper to race.

I think the radically different look of these kinds of cars is something that will help them find a place in the show at a lot of tracks, especially when they are running one or more classes of IMCA type modifieds already.

I really need some help with the promoters side of things though. The two I was friendly with have long since quit and sold out, so I'm fresh out of friends with race tracks.

The rest I've got a pretty good handle on, but without any tracks willing to run them, the class is DOA.

 

The white 4 car was one of mine. It ended up in Indiana. All of our races were on 1/4 and 1/3 mile dirt tracks.

 

\

Like this older style myself. Always loved 60's coupes. These were cruder cars, but were popular in Wisconsin / Illinois way back then. Sort of a pre-super modified. If you're going to have a cage, might as well cover it up with a sporty looking roof, eh? Gary

 

I want them to be topless because of the hugely positive feedback you hear from the fans when you throw a topless race for the modifieds or late models.

People like being able to see the drivers working in the car, and the drivers enjoy the nearly unrestricted view out of them.

Although those first two coupes are pretty close to being postless.

It's also easier to body a car when you don't have to deal with a roof or window posts.

 

Alrighty, I got the chassis model as far as I'm going to take it.

This model shows me that my drawings are good enough to build from and that the chassis cuts the lines I'm after, so I'm not going any farther.

As it sets there, the weight is ~350 lbs, but there are a few brace bars missing. I'd estimate the completed weight at ~400-425 lbs, with the center of gravity directly under the dash bar, ~14" above the CL of the lower frame rail tubes.

Here's the pics:









Still looking for anyone who knows a friendly promoter.

I'm still working on typing up the rule set. I'll post that up when it's done.

 

at first I didn't know if I would have anything to add to this post after.....

"Hotrodding is a pale substitute that has stood in for me when racing just became too expensive and time intensive for me."

but I went ahead and read all of the pages.......


SO,,, you want the racing promoters, tracks, fans, and competition to tailer their expectations to meet your budget????

Believe me, I'm not rich, either,,, but WHY?????

you can tailer classes to meet anyones budget, but they HAVE those classes already, the bombers. they are cheap racecars...

if you wanna play with the big boys you gotta pay up....

that is why my circle track stint was so short..... MOTOR CLAIMS.. F*ck that....

some guy can barely afford to buy a car (not becaus he doesn't have a job,, just that a 6 pack a day is more important than a good set of heads) , and has no knowledge of how to build a good motor, but just because I beat him fair and square he gets to claim MY MOTOR!!!!....... no way, first time it happened,, I told em to shove there points up there A$$. and walked.

drag racing is a HUGE edrenaline high, and it is knowledge and skill too... but no guy that never put in the effort or dedictation to save the money up is going to claim my motor....

I have alot of friends that still run circle track. if your going to do it without sponsors... your NUMBER ONE priority has to be racing........
here is a priority list a buddy of mine has on his wall...

1. racing
2. racing
3. racing
4. family
5. everything else....

he's one of those works 12 hours a day, been divorced twice because of racing,,, Rich guys. he works a 9 dollar an hour job, and tons of overtime to finance a lifestyle that he wants, he ignores everything else... cost him two wifes, and two kids.... but it is what he does.

me,,, nope...

I don't even drag race anymore....

for me hotrodding is EXPENSIVE and TIME CONSUMING. but it is something that myself, AND my family an enjoy FIRST HAND.... get the car finished, EVERYONE load up and go for a ride...


I wish you the best of luck in your endevor.. but I think the market is pretty well established,,, her in central Iowa the circle tracks are crowded every weekend..... they pack the places. they just don't NEED another cheap class....

 

Maybe (probably) I'll fail, but nothing ever gets done if someone doesn't try.

Forty years ago, I guarantee you that someone told the guy who invented the IMCA modified the exact same thing you just told me. And the guy who thought up steel block carbureted sprint car. And the guy who invented the dwarf car. And the go kart. And the HA/GR slingshot. And vintage modifieds. And the 358 NE modifieds. And and and and and . . . . .

Nay saying is pointless. If you don't think I've got a snowball's chance in hell, that's fine, feel free to not help. Go away or stay and watch, your call, but dwelling on the uphill trek is pointless (and sometime counterproductive). You put your climbing gear on and get to it.

Maybe Iowa will never embrace a class like this. Maybe they will. We'll never know if we don't try.

 

I'm not giving up on this deal.

I know it's been a while since I've posted an update, but basically, I've been busy at the shop trying to make money and keep the bankers at bay.

I have the rule set about 70% complete, and so far I like what I've got. I write, then read, then mull, then re-write, then mull, etc. It's an ongoing thing, when I've got the steam for it.

Just know that I'm not going away on this. It may be moving slowly, but it will always be moving forward.

When I get the rules settled, and I get some tubing set aside, I will be building a prototype car as a "proof of concept" to help sell the class to prospective track owners.

I will post a new thread to document that process though.

Hope everyone has a Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year.

 

I live in a little city Ada MN population slightly over 2k we get usually about 100 caRS A NITE here, when i run we were lucky to have 12 cars here!

Shatz is taking over Fargos fairgrounds track and making a 3/8 out of the 1/2 mile so there will be racing in Fargo on wend and in ada on thursday
sounds to me like car count will increase more .
that was reported in the Fargo Forum about a day ago, that 1/2 mile was a killer on engines and speed did eliminate a couple drivers lives, i never felt comfortable sliding up toward the cement wall at 80 plus mile an hour

I do know we have 2 classes of modified, I do not attend due to a addiction[and it is not drinking]

I used to get $400 a night in apearance $$ running way up north, and I did not have enough HP to explode and usually fineshed down about 2 laps, other than perpetual embarasement the income was good