Hey guys i got a club member who is offering up a free pontiac motor for my model a project. He says it was running when he got it, and he thinks its a 429? any way any input on these motors would be appreciated. what the hell go ahead and throw in the usual smart ass coment. ha ha.
First off, no such thing as a Pontiac 429. It's supposed to run and it's free? Get it in your posession and sort out what it actually is later. There's a two letter code stamped in the front of the passenger side of the block below the head mating surface. Pontiac used the same letter codes more than once, but between the code and the casting dates on the block and heads, you should be able to narrow it down.
They had 428s and 421s. Both pretty hot at the time. 400s of all sorts. Lets face it. Any 400+ inch motor should give you a pretty good ride if you do your part with it.
Pontiac did not make a 429, 428 was made from '67 to '69. Different ways to determine what it is, some cases the displacement is cast on the side of the block. You can find a lot on line going to the GTO forums, even though Pontiac never put the 428 in anything smaller than the Grand Prix. Now, back to the good and bad points. Pontiac engines are torque producers, don't try to run them like a small block Chevy or you will start having MAJOR problems. Have seen a connecting rod or two snapped when they have been spun to 6000 RPM. %-5500 RPM is where I run my 428 to. The weak point is the cast conn rods. Check the timing chain and cam gear. Pontiacs had a real big problem from the late 60's to about 72 with these components. The cam sprocket was a nylon/aluminum combination that would flake nylon off at about the 50-70k mark. Most have been replaced by now, but you MIGHT run across a low mileage virgin engine. Change it now if so, not later. Another issue that came up with that is that while Pontiac told us in dealerships to drop the oi pan and clean all the teeth pieces out of the pan. The Pontiac oil pump would pick these up and stick them in the oil pump screen thereby restricting oil flow. Rod bearings would be the first to go out then. Also, if you replace the timing cover or the water pump, behind the pump is a metal plate called a divider package. A lot of times people would pull the water pump to replace it and because this was sandwiched between gaskets, it comes off stuck to the pump. Pump turned in as a core, installer either forgets about it or thinks it's not needed and eliminates it. Water dows not flow correctly, overheats. If you see a metal sleeve in there with a rubber ring, be sure to reinstall them too. Check the timing cover for pinhole leaks or major corrosion, this occurrs with straight water usage and the reaction between the aluminum. If you have any more questions, private mail me, I'll give you a phone number and I'll try to help you with other questions. Been playing with "real" Pontiacs since '69, have owned seven since then.
For quick ID purposes, all blocks except 389s and 400s, (with minor exceptions) have a triangular shaped transfer lug (an extra chunk of cast iron by the distributor hole that serves no purpose other than identification) on the right rear of the block near the distributor hole. The lack of this lug would i.d. blocks as 389 or 400 inches. The last 2 digits of the displacement are often cast in the center of the lifter valley. So in your case if its a 428 look for the "2 8". Many blocks also have the displacement cast on the side of the block towards the front left corner. You can quick i.d. a '66 and earlier block by 2 side core plugs. Later years had 3 plugs. 2 motor mount holes were used through 1969. 1970 and later will have either 3 or 5 motor mount holes to accomodate Firebird chassis. Starters began moving from the bellhousing to the block sometime in '64. Stud oiled heads were used though '64 then became pushrod oiled in 1965. For more definitive i.d. purposes, the date code of the block is cast near the distributor pad in a Julian format such as A123, where "A" is January, the next two digits are the day of that month and the last digit is the year ('63). After that the block casting is in the distributor neighborhood for '64 and earlier blocks and then later cast on the right bank behind #8 bore. Casting number will i.d displacement. There is also a 2 or 3 digit code under (usually) a 6 digit code in the pad below the right hand cylinder head. The 6 digit code is just the motor unit number and doesn't mean much unless you're really hung up on matching numbers. The 2-3 digit code is your application code. This is the code that defined the heads, cam, carb, distributor, etc. that made the engine a Ram Air, HO, base model, etc. There are plenty of sources available to decipher these codes, but you can just post them here and someone will know what they are. Pontiacs are great motors for the street, and in the last decade have developed a huge aftermarket contingency as well. The drag racing side of Pontiacs are still alive and well today thanks to those efforts. Lots of speed parts availabe, modern and vintage. Despite GM's efforts to kill Pontiac, it is still alive and well today.
Who has 'em Hemi guy asks? I got a few. I even have a couple of HEMI Pontiacs. There are more Pontiacs out there than you may think and I'm kinda' fond of 'em. Gosh, they are good motors! Nope, they are the best motors! Steve Hosting- Saturday, November 28, 2009 1st annual PBO Fall Fest Phoenix www.pbofallfest.org Thur-Sun April 8-11, 2010 12th annual Pontiac Heaven Phoenix www.pontiacheaven.org Sunday April 11, 2010 8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! Phoenix www.nostalgicshowandgo.org
Mmmm, Pontiac specs and discussion, it's almost as good as sex...I'm guilty of owning a few, and I'm always looking for more...if I ever came across any pre-79 Pontiac motor for free, I'd be out the door to go get it while the guy is still giving me directions...I LOVE torquey motors, and the rearends they made to handle them...
A good Pontiac 428 you could throw on ebay and sell for enough to build about two small block Chevy motors. Easily a $1500 piece.
I have a '65 389 that will go in my next Model A project that I cant wait to run. I love early Ford V8s, but my first love is Pontiac! If you do actually get ahold of a real 428 OR a 421, DO NOT SELL IT! They are getting pretty scarce now and youll never find another for free, thats for sure!
A small block I can buy for $175 or so all day long, I'd have to sell like 30 of them to build a Pontiac, except maybe a 400.
If he's getting one for free, then that's 1/3 of the battle won...besides, I'm just being funny, I wouldn't mind building a SBC or two (I'm actually building one for a re-creation of the car in my avatar when I get shop space to work in again)...but I'll always love Pontiacs more, even more than my early hemis...
I just wish I had all the pontiac motors I sold ,back .73 455 and a 400 .Motors a couple years ago use to be a dime a dozen.Im partial to pontiac over chevy any day of the week ,Even though im running a chevy in my model a . Here's a shot of my poncho Pontiac motors are not that much heavier than a smallblock chevy.The steering is the tricky part ,Its not that tough though .Good luck and grab that free pontiac motor
Pontiacs are the best IMO. I have had several and my father has had Pontiacs for the last 40 years. The neat thing about a Pontiac is that you really don't have to deviate much from stock to have a really stong engine. I have an old Poncho with a smog era 400, aftermarket intake(muscle era iron intakes are great too), cam and headers, otherwise basically stock and this is one of the hardest running cars I have ever been around. All hail the Chief!
I have a 64 Pontiac with a 389 and I have a 52 Pontiac with the Flathead Straight Eight engine. If I ever find me a good old coupe body to build one day, it'll be Pontiac powered also. I've got 2 Flat 8's and a Flat 6 Pontiac laying around and I also have a '72 400 and a late 60's 389.
Nothing wrong with a Tin Indian mill. I have a 55 GMC with a 287 a 69 firebird with a 350 and have a 400 i plan to put in a 56 chevy gasser. My inlaws had a 69 bonnieville with a 428 back in the early 70,s that thing won it,s share of drag races. OldWolf
I forgot to mention I have a 1/2 of a Pontiac engine. It is going to power my Chassis Research TE-440 re-creation -a mighty 195 inch Trophy 4, complete with a 4-71 blower. Should be a hoot when its running. Hope to have it ready for the HAMB drags next year. Funny story about the development of this motor. DeLorean saw the need for a budget 4 at the time and came up with the idea of a 4 cylinder based on the 389 V-8. His vision was based on the cost savings of having interchangeabilty with the 389. The engineers built the prototype on a moments notice out of a 389 and simply knocked holes in the tops of the pistons on the left side of the motor, pulled the plugs and blocked off that half of the intake. That sounds like something one of us would do, not the greatest company in the world at the time. Anyway it ran, and it ran rough. Vibration issues plagued it for its 3 year production run. It didn't earn the nickname Hay-Baler for no reason.
Not sure how true your story is. I've heard, and read different stories about the Tempest development over the years. I do not know which one is true. You are correct though on the vibration issues. I have tried to research just "why" they vibrated and have never got a real answer. Other 4 cylinders run smooth, why not a Tempest 4? It has a 180 crank. Most, or all modern 4cyls also have 180 degree cranks. Any REALLY know? Steve Hosting- Pontiac/Buick/Olds FALL FEST Sat Nov 28, 2009 Phoenix www.pbofallfest.org 12th annual Pontiac Heaven April 8-11, 2010 Phoenix www.pontiacheaven.org 8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! April 11, 2010 Phoenix www.nostalgicshowandgo.org
I could use different words here but, I disagree. 428s can be bought for less. Also, with the reasonably priced stroker cranks out there now, it is smarter to build a 389/400 block based engine. less expensive and a better starting point. Steve Hosting- Pontiac/Buick/Olds FALL FEST Sat Nov 28, 2009 Phoenix www.pbofallfest.org 12th annual Pontiac Heaven April 8-11, 2010 Phoenix www.pontiacheaven.org 8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! April 11, 2010 Phoenix www.nostalgicshowandgo.org
So what are you saying? Are you a real hot rodder? If so, cost, even your distored figures, should not be an option. If you like to eat, you can buy 30 pounds of oat meal and last a week for $10. same with mac and cheese. but, I would guess, you like to eat better at times. or all times. how about shoes? do you buy the cheapest ones? if so, you can get 30 pair of used ones at yard sales for a few dollars if you want the cheapest. How about girl friends or a wife?? want the cheapest one? Not me, I like ones with all their teeth though they may cost more.... How about where you live? Nothing is cheaper than living in a card board box, but most are willing to spend more to have something different and nicer. You could buy 30 card board boxes for less than a cheap studio if cheapest is what you desire. Yet, with all this comparison, you want to mention the cheapest engine build? This is a car guy? If you want cheap than buy a little used jap car and you can save a bunch of money. howz that? Think of building a Pontiac as a quality build. You can have your effin' 30 little chebbys. you and low riders set can have all of the ones you want for all I care. Pontiac is best at ANY cost. Further, the last few years have brought a ton of aftermarket parts for Pontiacs that has dropped the cost considerably and given more building options than anyone could have fantasized about 10-15 years back. You can have your oat meal, your used cheap shoes, and your little cheap chebbys. To each their own but a real car/gear head understands the finer things in vehicle propulsion and does not have an issue spending his money on what brings him enjoyment and satisfaction. If there is ANY vintage blocked chebby anything that wants to pick on my '60 389 powered digger. I dare them to choose me! Keep the chebbies for the low rider set. Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org Hosting- Pontiac/Buick/Olds FALL FEST Sat Nov 28, 2009 Phoenix www.pbofallfest.org 12th annual Pontiac Heaven April 8-11, 2010 Phoenix www.pontiacheaven.org 8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! April 11, 2010 Phoenix www.nostalgicshowandgo.org
Snag that motor! I also share a love of Pontiac stuff...especially engines. I'm building a '57 Pontiac 347, punched to 370 cu in. Goes into my 34 ford coupe with a 5 speed behind it. I've probably had 20-25 Pontiacs in my life.....all oldies. Newest one was a 70 Boneville with a 455...what a torque monster
I'd love to see a shootout between Sneaky Pete Robinson's chev powered digger against your 389 powered one applekrate, it'd be two of my favorite things in one race!...what's your best E/T and speed, just out of curiousity?...
The 455 has a much larger main bearing 3.25 i think than the 400 3" main. I was wondering why racers were cutting down 455 cranks to fit in 400 blocks. The larger diameter bearing has more bearing speed at a given rpm. the smaller mains allow for less friction and higher rpm without turning a main bearing. most pontiac rods are good to 6000 rpm if theyre built right according to nunzie. It's supposed to be a good high rpm combo to run a 400crank/400 block/7"rods/custom pistons and a lifter bore girdle if your running a radical cam like around .600 lift or a roller. Everything is heavier and needs a good bolt. rodbolts stretch, the bearings roll and when the load is off the bolts they clamp back down locking the rod to the crankpin. The forces needed to pull a rod apart will most likely break the bolts first. After replacing stock rodbolts with arp bolts on every rebuild I've never lost anymore rods on any engine. way cheap insurance. I have a 67 389. when I was setting it up i noticed the timing cover was different than 70's engines. The older design pumps coolant in one side of the block at the front, through the head across the intake manifold through the other head into the other side of the block and back to the front. sometime around when the 389 became the 400 they revised the cooling to go into the block on both sides up through both heads simultaneously and to the radiator from the intake crossover. The old timing cover has one port from the front of the water pump block off plate and the other is behind the plate. there is only one removable transfer tube that has the donut seal In the newer setup there are 2 removable metal tubes with a seal on one end. The new one cools alot better. It's reproduced, the older one is not and I got $60 for it on ebay. The blocks are the same there, you can change the timing cover and not worry about the block.
i know the 400 that was built for my 67' firebird had ram air 3 heads that had been totally reworked and flowed like the columbia river. it had torque like a john deer tractor, crazy amounts up to 4000rpm. keeping them cool was issue.
Get the thing home, post some detail pictures of what you've got here, along with any numbers stamped or cast in the outside. There are enough knowledgeable people here you'll find out soon enough what you've got. Sometimes you get lucky and find something with a TriPower, but any Pontiac motor complete enough to run is a good find, 400, 421, 428, and 455s are really good. Some of the rarer ones (early dual quad race motors, 425A trophy series 370 and 389s, HO and Super Duty anything, Ram Air anything) are really, really good. Who knows, if your luck runs good enough to win the lotto, you might even have someone give you an early injected motor, or maybe even a Ram Air V.
I have one! The guy said it was a 400, but it's in a 1980 firebird, and wasn't supposed to be an engine option that year. I haven't done anything with it to see if it runs, or checked the numbers. Best thing is the entire car was FREE!
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