I have a long way to go to be competitive but, it is still quite fast. So far- 6.77 @ 200mph on a 1,000' or so pass. The car has yet to make a full run. Engine is based on a 1959 389 block and is now 399 inches. This is with my own version of modified wedge heads. M/T HEMI heads are in development and will be added later. This is in legal trim- 3.90 gear, 12" nostalgia tire, no transmission, standard 6-71 blower 15% overdrive, small fuel pump. Car is together and ready to rock but, funding has kept her in the trailer most of the time. I do sleep with it believe it or not. So far she has successfully buzzed to 8,400rpm and is desigined to spin 10,000 in the lights. I think current combo is good for 6.20s-6.30s at around 230mph we'll see. If there is an iron chevy using a block of similar vintage, that would be a good race. Later with HEMI heads and better parts, my goal is to be well in the 5's and competitive. Steve Hosting- Pontiac/Buick/Olds FALL FEST Sat Nov 28, 2009 Phoenix www.pbofallfest.org 12th annual Pontiac Heaven April 8-11, 2010 Phoenix www.pontiacheaven.org 8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! April 11, 2010 Phoenix www.nostalgicshowandgo.org
Had a 455 In my Bonneville Vega. Kinsler injected, Roller cam ground for a 400 drag engine. Acell duel point, Bill Miller aluminum rods & 12 : 1 pistons with #16 heads from a '68? 400 GTO. Thing went 208 in '92. Would have been faster with a proper cam and maybe more gear.
Hello Hamber- This post has some good info at the beginning , then it goes astray. Your post is fine through the words 'cheap insurance' but, after that?? you have a '67 389? then you have the only one as Pontiac never made such an engine. Further and more important. Your statements on cooling are totally wrong and misleading. "The older design pumps coolant in one side of the block at the front, through the head across the intake manifold through the other head into the other side of the block and back to the front." The above statement is totally false and misleading. All Pontiac V-8s from 1960-1981 pump water though both sides of the block, into the heads, and out the intake. not sure why you would post that. I would hope you did not do it intentionally but, you are wrong either way. I have multiples of every year of Pontiac engine here at Pontiac Heaven for reference. Steve Hosting- Pontiac/Buick/Olds FALL FEST Sat Nov 28, 2009 Phoenix www.pbofallfest.org 12th annual Pontiac Heaven April 8-11, 2010 Phoenix www.pontiacheaven.org 8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! April 11, 2010 Phoenix www.nostalgicshowandgo.org
I think mine is still the largest displacement traditional Pontiac on the street at 601ci (4.375 bore x 5-inch stroke) but Steve B would know for sure. Some bigger ones at the track already, but I don't know if anyone else is swinging a big Pontiac crank on the street like me.
I don't know of anything bigger than you. There is a guy in Alaska with a 601 drag GTO. I wonder what 601" must feel like under your right foot? The biggest engine in my arsenal is 577" and it is blown and also based on a '59 389. No larger engines are planned. I do have a 541" Pontiac for my jet boat but, most of my development and future is with Pontiac engines under 400". I have plans to build a 370 and also building a 265/301 and even a tiny 4cyl at around 141" Most, or all, of these smaller engines will be blown. Steve Hosting- Pontiac/Buick/Olds FALL FEST Sat Nov 28, 2009 Phoenix www.pbofallfest.org 12th annual Pontiac Heaven April 8-11, 2010 Phoenix www.pontiacheaven.org 8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! April 11, 2010 Phoenix www.nostalgicshowandgo.org
I have 3 60s Pontiacs and have a bunch of 455s and 400s. With todays aftermarket stroker kits, I wouldn't waste my time on 428s or 455s. I'd rather have a 400 with a stroker kit. The price to build a Pontiac with good quality parts are the same as Chevy's now or very close. I have had 428s also and as far as I was concerned back then, "If you want to go big journal, go big" 455. A buddy of mine did 11.10s with a 455 and stock bottom end and when he put it on the dyno, it rev'd to 6700!!!!!! I rev my 400 to 6500 all the time and with a stock bottom end and non ported heads, I am doing 12.5s with a totally streetable engine in a 3800 lb car. With nitrous, 11.75s I also love the interchangability of pontiacs. Here's a quick video of my 400 that was built in 1991 for $999 and $300 for a valve grind and new springs. Very cheap rebuild and still going strong. This is how this engine has been running since 1991,"HARD"! The first video is my car in a movie called Hustle and Fish. If you like to fish, this movie has humor, great fishing, and great nature shots. Lots of Fish porn and Fishizzle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dTfMAH9UL8&feature=email Here are some of the details. http://www.youtube.com/user/sixt8bird#p/u/4/Xuq-3a0AHEU
Agree 100%. you are 'in the know' The Pontiac V-8 interchangeability is without equal. Even the chev has 3 or 4 block designs, Pontiac has one. When you build something that good, you do not need to make different engines, you just refine what you already have. Steve Hosting- Pontiac/Buick/Olds FALL FEST Sat Nov 28, 2009 Phoenix www.pbofallfest.org 12th annual Pontiac Heaven April 8-11, 2010 Phoenix www.pontiacheaven.org 8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! April 11, 2010 Phoenix www.nostalgicshowandgo.org
I laugh when I see a Chevy in a Pontiac. The first thing they say is that they got rid of the Pontiac as the Chevy is cheaper. Maybe a few pennies but at what cost in performance. One of the most memorable experiences was at the local 1/8th mile track. This guy had a 1967 Lemans and I asked him what he was running? He told me a BB 396 as the Pontiacs didn't make power and were unreliable. Well wouldn't you know, I was staged next to him. I thought maybe he had a hot 396 that would spank me as he was so confident about his newfound Chevy power. Well by the time I crossed the 1/8th mile end, he was 5 cars back. I raced him again later and the same thing. Also at a local cruise in a guy has a 1969 400 Firebird that he dropped a Chevy small block in with all the Edelbrock dress up crap and he had Trick flow aluminum heads. He was proud to tell people he was doing 13.40s!!! What? LOL!! Thats why I like Pontiac.
Hell, with the new 4.650 V race only block and a 5" stroke, 679 cid of Poncho power. Top that with some V heads. That would really be something!
Just because it revs to 6700 with a stock bottom end and hasn't broken yet doesn't mean it is something that something the motor will keep doing long term. Remember the old adage "just because you can doesn't mean you should"? When Pontiac went out to three inches on the mains (1959 on the 389's), people were concerned with bearing rubbing speed. Those fears proved to be pretty much groundless. When the mains were taken out to 3 1/4" on production 421's, even more people jumped on the bearing rubbing speed bandwagon. Fact is, I can't remember talking to anyone with a "normal" Pontiac (I'm not including mega horsepower race motors turning mega RPMs) motor having problems with the mains, it always seems to be the rods. I'd hazard a guess if you're turning a stock bottom end Pontiac motor 6000 plus RPMs, it will develop a major problem with rod bearings, sooner, rather than later. If you're lucky it will "just" spin a rod bearing due to stretched rod bolts, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it was number six. Just a wee little voice of experience here, if you are spinning over 5500 RPM regularly, do yourself and your motor a big favor, freshen up the bottom end with new bearings and upgraded rod bolts at the very least, sooner rather than later. "Massaging" the oil galleries couldn't hurt either, along with adding a Ram Air IV style oil pump (high volume) and pickup.
No kidding there! That's Diesel-like torque! I wish I hadn't seen those new Hemi heads. Now the little wheels in my head are turning...the only thing better than a 601ci Pontiac would be a 601ci Pontiac Hemi!
Another major failure problem with Pontiacs is something so simple. A lot of people do not put 6 quarts of oil in it. Further, they do not keep the oil level proper. Many 'professional' engine builders cannot even under stand how to properly install the Pontiac dip stick tube assembly either. That makes the problem even worse. ARP rods bolts and proper resizing of stock rods is a minimum requirement for any performance or durability build. The smaller the mains, the better the oiling and the less internal friction involved. in the early SD days of NASCAR, at least some Pontiac builders, including Smokey Yunick, did not use the 3 1/4" mains. I currently own the only known exisiting complete blown M/T HEMI Pontiac engine. The block was cast by PMD in spring '62 and has 'M/T' cast in the side of it. Most of its life, it displaced 460 inchs, now it is 421 inches. It uses alum Hemi heads and magnesium intake and related parts. In other words, the very best it could be made at the time....it has 3" mains. I am not saying 3 1/4" mains do not work, they can and do. But, a 3" main engine is a wiser build. Unless you already have a 421, 428 or 455, anyone would be smarter to build up a 389/400 block, or smaller, for a performance build. Why? it would be less money, less internal friction and strong as there is more material left in the bulkheads of the block with the smaller mains. If you are planning a new Pontiac build. Leave the 3 1/4" main stuff to the collectors and the NHRA guys who have to use them. This means use a 3" main, or smaller, block a 389/400 as a starting point. From there, you can put any crank in it and go as big as any 3 1/4" block can go. Steve Hosting- Pontiac/Buick/Olds FALL FEST Sat Nov 28, 2009 Phoenix www.pbofallfest.org 12th annual Pontiac Heaven April 8-11, 2010 Phoenix www.pontiacheaven.org 8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! April 11, 2010 Phoenix www.nostalgicshowandgo.org
I have mixed feelings on big inch motors, regardless of brand. They have their place. Primary reasons would be an unblown build or for the wow factor. However, a motor that big has so much roatating weight is going to be very hard on parts. A smaller engine that is blown will make as much, or more, power, potentially be more reliable and even get better mileage than a hige N/A engine. That is the direction I am going. esp for my street cars. I enjoy driving my Pontiacs too much. I could never drive a late model or some jap car and have my Pontiac sit in my garage. By planning a smaller displacement build with boost, you can have the enjoyment of driving all the time if you wanted and not kill you on operation costs. Big motors have their place, like in a jet boat where they need stroke to more them. also tow rigs and heavy cars. Steve Hosting- Pontiac/Buick/Olds FALL FEST Sat Nov 28, 2009 Phoenix www.pbofallfest.org 12th annual Pontiac Heaven April 8-11, 2010 Phoenix www.pontiacheaven.org 8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! April 11, 2010 Phoenix www.nostalgicshowandgo.org
Great advice, but when you've got a 421 block and 428 crank you've been hoarding forever and their earmarked for a 2500 pound street car motor...
I've got a couple of '69 Pontiac (Catalinas) that I've been saving for their drivetrains (for hot rods). I would like to think that they are 400's, but not sure how to tell. I don't think the displacement was imbossed on the side of the block until 1970 or later. Any suggestions on checkingt displacement?
Applekrate, you already have Pete's first digger beat for both ET and speed...damn, hahaha...I guess it wouldn't be much of a match-up...you could go up against his Ford Cammer 427 Tinker Toy, but that wouldn't be fair until you got the hemi heads on your motor...I love reading all this info on Pontiac drag racing, engine building and tips/tricks...it's like one of those smutty romance novels for gearheads...I miss hearing my 400 barking through the fenderwell headers I made for it, that sound made me happier than anything else in the world, no matter what shit was going on in my life at the time, I could bump the key and hear that baby rumble, crackle, growl and scream and all the worries I had would melt into the biggest damned smile I've ever had each and every time...
two letter code below the serial on the right front of the block, cross reference to a '69 Motor's manual or look online - should get you close presuming the motors are original - lot of tough to find parts on '69s for the guys into those, too -
I agree with what you say. My post is referring to new builds, someone starting with nothing. I am not knocking the bigger Pontiacs at all. It is just that they are more expensive if you don't have one already and the 389/400 block as a foundation has better perimeters too. If you have a 421, 428, 455 ( I have them too ), enjoy them! They are all great motors and can be very powerful and reliable. as an example, the 455 I built in 1999 for my '72 GTO now has 173,000 miles and still runs great and is very reliable. I've driven it all over the US including an 11,000 road trip over 7 weeks in the fall of 2007. It was a blast. I tow with it often and it runs cool and starts everytime. I am VERY happy with my 455s. There is a 428 going together for a '62 Catalina HT and using a 6 speed trans. and a '65 GTO sedan with a 421 and 4 speed. They are all good engines. gosh I have way more stuff than I deserve. really, I am blessed. thank you Lord. Steve Hosting- Pontiac/Buick/Olds FALL FEST Sat Nov 28, 2009 Phoenix www.pbofallfest.org 12th annual Pontiac Heaven April 8-11, 2010 Phoenix www.pontiacheaven.org 8th annual Nostalgic Show & Go! April 11, 2010 Phoenix www.nostalgicshowandgo.org
I'm saying the guy should sell the 428 to a Pontiac guy who knows them and understands them rather than run it and break it and have one less 428 on the planet. A 428 is more money to build because it has the small journal crank and oversize pistons ain't cheap. But it will sell for enough, depending on what codes are on it, to buy a complete running vehicle with a low-milage Vortec 350 in it. Never said a Chevy is a better motor, although I've run both Pontiac 389s, 400s and 455s and small block Chevys and have no complaints about any of them. You can say cost should not be an option all you want, but frankly some of us aren't millionaires, we have bills to pay and families to feed and when we get an opportunity to make a nice buck on something, we're going to take it. Once we make our money it's easy to buy something less expensive that will do the same job. You poke around you can buy a running late 400 for under $500, I paid $200 for one a few years back. Sometimes they even land in the you-pull-it yards. Which is where my $175 price for a small block comes from - $140 for the motor, $35 core charge at the closest one to me. They get a real Pontiac (301's don't count) in a car about once a year.
428s are large journal and as far as 428s being worth a bunch, they are worth maybe 4- 500 for the block which I think is way over priced. You can buy a beat up old station wagon with a 455 in it for $500 and be way ahead. 428s use to be the cool engine as they would rev like the 400 but put some torque out also. Unfortunately they also have more friction than a 400 Pontiac. So again, you can pick up a 400 block for a $100-200 and then buy a stroker kit for $1600 with Ross racing pistons, H beam rods, new crank, bearings, and rings fully balanced and have 468 CID that will rev better than any stock 400,428,455. plus you have 1/4" more meat and potatoes around your crank. The days of 428s and 455s being king is no longer true. Also there are tricks that any Pontiac guy should do and know to make a Pontiac engine last. If you watched my videos above, you would see how I drive all my cars. Thats HARD with capitals. Since I have been driving Pontiacs way back in 1978, I have never had an engine fail. If you are rev'ing alot, dont use too thick of an oil as it will take longer to get back to the bottom end which I think is the main problem why some engines let go. I run 10-30 and run 6 quarts of oil like Apple crate says and any heavier weight is for loose bearings. Stay away from 20-50 unless your engine is worn out in which you should rebuild it anyway. I also run a 160 stat and dont give me the BS that the engine will sludge up!! I put 230,000 miles on one of my engines and sold it as a good runner and the guy popped the valve covers and it looked brand spanking new!!!! I also run a bit fat. I can sit in traffic all day long and if my temp ever went up to 180, I would think that there was something wrong. It runs as high as 175 and thats it when the temps are in the 90s and its stop and go for an hour. As far as rev'ing to 6200, a 400 will do this as many times you want to do it. Just make sure you have good oil and keep it up. Watch the video and you will see my $999 engine built in 1991 that has never seen a day that it hasn't hit 6200 rpm. Also I run the #16 heads that were rated at 10.5- 10.75-1 compression. Its more like 10:1 compression as the factory bumped their compression up on paper. Pontiacs have fully machined chambers that let you get away with more compression than Chevys. Some people just don't get the basics of Pontiac engines. UGH!!! I got a Hemi for my 3 window but if I knew how much money it cost before building it, I would have dropped one of my 455s in it and shoved a set of Edelbrock heads on it as I have a couple sets and a few engines kicking around. With a small cam, the 455 with E heads out of the box makes 572 ft lbs of torque at like 4,000 and 521 HP on pump gas. If you don't know about Pontiac torque, the 400 I mention does 0-60 mph in 3.8 seconds and with nitrous, 3.2 seconds 0-60. When I do 12.5 seconds in the 1/4 my MPH is only 105 as my heads aren't ported. 3810 lbs!!! Now put that into a Hotrod that weighs in at 2000 lbs and look out!!!
Actually if you know this formula you can figure it out with reasonable accuracy yourself. B X B X S X .7854 X the number of cylinders Where B is the bore, S is the stroke, and .7854 is simply a constant to make the formula work. In the case of the 428 Pontiac the stock bore is 4.12 in inches and the stock stroke is four inches. I don't know about yours, but my calculator says this gives you 53.326775 cubic inches per cylinder for a grand total of 426.6142 with eight cylinders. Dragging out the trusty calculator again, Ford's 428 is also a 426 (426.544218), and their 427 is 424.96524, or just shy of being a 425. I chose not to round the numbers my calculator spit out to illustrate the actual displacements. All the manufacturers round the numbers for whatever reason suits them at the time, what's your point.
That guy Scotch, he's a show off....................... Mine, a 60 389 in my 55 Chieftain. Ignore the alt, I've gotten a proper bracket since then. Come to think of it, ignore the ugly bastad car as well. =OP
My '40 Plymouth weighs in at 2300lbs (2675 with me in it) and I've got a mild 400 in it with 350 heads (9:1 compression), stock grind cam (094 I think, probably wrong on that), fenderwell headers, Holley 600cfm and Weiand intake (got em both for free) and points distributor/coil setup (switching to a Mallory Hyfire 4 box and coil after I rebuild the motor), with the shitty TH350 behind it (my knees hate clutch pedals unfortunately) and a '62 Pontiac powerlok rear with 3.23's (can't afford to swap gears yet) I'm pretty sure with the minimal money I have into it it'll still scoot down the track just fine, if I ever get it all done...
All great advice and wonderful info---pontiac rocks. However, maybe we should not be using the term "jap" anymore? Yes, No? a)i think our gov't is more to blame for the "invasion;" Japanese manufactuers only pay, i think $400 tariff, to import a car here. Whereas, if any outside manufacturer wants to import a car to Japan, unless they build and operate a factory there, then it's really high---several thousands$$$. i think it's either 11grand or 14 grand per car. b) alot of us were not around during WW2. Yes, we can't forget what happened. But most people working in the Japanese car industry presently, probably were not around during WW2 either. i got no beef with any Japanese citizen born after WW2 unless they adamantly deny anthing that happened in WW2 which i don't think is the case.
Steve- You know I built my 601 for street and road race/autocross duty. Cost-wise, yes, it was pricey up front, but I'll be beating it without mercy and need it to be reliable. I also designed it to be 'done' by 6,000 rpm. I don't have to tell you that rpm kills parts more than weight. By keeping rpm low, and investing in top-quality components, I expect it'll have a long lifespan. I've heard some folks say a low rpm engine is not a road race engine. To those folks, I say take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj1RB6_497c&feature=player_embedded <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bj1RB6_497c&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bj1RB6_497c&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> This is a big Mopar Hemi-powered road racer. Watch the tach and the speedo carefully...! Looks like fun, yes? PS- I heart Brandy!
The Jalopy Journal
