i don't think it was an attempted guilt trip . More someone that wants to race ,and has raced before, simply asking a qusetion about the rules. This atitude is what ruin's the chance for everyone to be a part of drag racing! Rules and $$$ thats what it equals out to. Sound like someones been watching way too much nascar. I rather see a hydro than a t5 any day.but thats just me .i like to see period correct racecars not someone's interpertation of one with a 1968 slant six one barrel and t56 ,radial tires ,gay ass red rims ,and a racoon tail . Oh, and you can miss a shift with a manualy shifted hydromatic . You don't wan't dirt racing any way he might build a car thats faster than yours and that would make you look bad.i will never build a "hampster" for the simple reason of that i can build a real race car ,not just a stock motor'd go cart for big kids .and the rules that govern them.
If you have done any research on the HA/GR class rules and assorted build posts and reports on this forum you would understand the reasoning behind the "manual transmissions only" rule. With that in mind you would also understand that this class isn't about "Stock motor'd go carts" anymore than "Vintage Top Fuel" is about what true front engined dragsters are about. That said, If you need it explained to you, you'll never understand it anyway. Build what you want and go race it, but don't rag on others for doing it their way and not how you think. It seems like every few months we get some new folks who discover the HA/GR board and develop an interest in possibly building one of these cars. Often they express their desires and start out by asking questions about the class, what engines they can use, what basic construction methods and on some occasions "where can they get blueprints for the cars". Generally after the initial questions it seems that there is a tendency for many to ask why they can't run some combination of parts that are "outside the box" such as an automatic transmission or a Holley four barrel carb or some other pieces that don't quite fit the spirit of the class. First off, without wanting to sound like the grouchy old man that I am, if they would just look at the top of the forum, they would see the post "Sticky: HA/GR Rules..." that does a pretty good job of saying what is and what is not allowed in the class. There are no blueprints and the general design of these cars is left to the builder, as it was in the past. Second, if those rules don't appeal to them, I have no problem with that, build what you want, but don't expect those of us building to the rules and spirit of the class to change the rules to fit your feelings on what you want to build. Third, realize that this class is all about, "Run What Ya Brung, Heads Up, No Handicap Racing", in home built rails in the spirit of how it was done "back then" in the '40s, '50s and early '60s. That doesn't mean there aren't concessions to safety in construction methods and design, but the whole idea goes back to the concept of non-mass produced cars, and the design is left up to the builder, not laid down in the rules. Interpretation is left to the builder within the simple parameters that the driver sit in front of the rear axle, the axles not be narrowed, and suspension is whatever you do or do not desire. If you wish to "Bracket Race", fine.......many people enjoy the concept. If you wish to run a class where if you "run too fast" you can break out, fine, but please accept the fact that there are some of us who wish to build our own cars, our own way, without blueprints other than sketches on notebook paper and coffee shop napkins. As it was in the past, there will always be those who feel that the biggest and baddest engine is the only way to win and there will be those who feel that David can still slay the giant. That is the reality that this class is based on. If you wish to play the game, welcome aboard. There is always room for more to run and we are glad to have you, just realize that the rules are there and they aren't really that complex. Times have changed, they coat the track with contact cement now and a six inch tire sticks a lot better than it did in the days of bare asphalt or concrete, but the racing is still about who gets there first Hope to see you in the staging lanes.......and may the quickest one win.
RAY With, That thing is beautiful. Thanks for the pictures, I've tucked'em in their own folder in my collection. Definitely keepers.
Thanks Old6 and there is still a lot to do. I have to build a firewall and have it all laid out in cardboard and need material now. Installing friction shocks like it use to have and a little welding and it will be ready for motor and electrical . I am doing a few pictures as I go and will post as I get a little time.
very well put . and point taken. it was not my intent to offend anyone . i do understand the concept of a class and anyone who has ever been injured understands the need for safety my beef is simply not letting hydros or early auto's run in that class you can do alot with a hydro but is it cheaper to run the stock hydro with your flathead lincoln ? or buy a expensive adapter kit and manual gear box? im sure the rules are there for a reason ,and its problably been debated before. i just belive your selling your selves short by not allowing autos . It would help your class to grow you already have one guy who wants in . ps all of my personal cars at this time are standard. i perfer them. may be you could start a new class AHA/GR A for auto .ps what about a chrysler fluid drive it is a standard 3spd only the flywheel has a fluid coupler infront of it ? what about a manual shift clutched hydro? just stickin up for dirt you know he missed a shift with his hydro at fomosa in his 32 then got back in it only to have the front universal goint to let go at the lights causing the car to poll vault end over end he was thrown out of the original open top by centrifugal force being scalped in the process and remained consiousnes throughout the ordeal. i asked him where was the drive shaft loop he said didnt have one ,no loop ,no helmet ,no seat belt, just a t-shirt that said "powerd by junk". he said the worst part was they left the windows down in the ambulance and the wind was blowing on his bare skull ,all he asked was how's my car? so you could say he is aware of safety. you never know who your talking to thats why you should treat every one with respect . quote "drive fast and have a shitty day tomarrow"
PORTERVILLE, I understand respect and I'm not trying to offend anyone, but the manual/automatic thing has been beaten to death many times over. For those who wish to run an automatic, the SDRA guys have no problems with the concept as well as other options that don't fit into the spirit of the HA/GR rules. It just seems that many folks come on here with the attitude that they would like to build an HA/GR, but "why can't I use an Automatic", or "can't we use radial tires", or "why can't we run an Olds overhead V8, they were built before '62", or whatever else comes to mind. The rules are really pretty simple and don't need to be changed. As you yourself said, you don't have to build one, you "can build a real race car". Why does everybody feel the need to change the class to fit their own ideas? Build what ya want, just don't expect it to be accepted as an HA/GR if it doesn't fit the rules.
I'll add that the SDRA cars and the HA/GR cars race side by side in Tulsa (where they started) and the slushpumpers are presently faster. Hell, do what we did. Build the first one on the west coast, bring it out and race it. Get the SDRA rolling out here. I guarantee there'll be followers if you do. And at least you'll get to race the first year instead of having to settle for "show & tells" 'til the second like we did. Why should the Tulsa boys be the only ones to enjoy a good rivalry? It may well be that I've talked to Dirts32 at the strip. I recall someone mentioning a problem with shifting and I believe I responded regarding the SDRA then. Perhaps it was another person with the same concerns, I'm sure there're others. As to respect, calling someone on a silly statement (we all make'em from time to time if we're human) isn't disrespectful in my book if it isn't done antagonistically. I've been called on things, as we all have. I take it as it's intended, "Gimme a break Dick, that's a bit much." Embarrassing yes, offensive no. What's hard to convey in print is the tone of it. There's no icon handy to show the wry head shake a friend gives you in calling you on something silly. "But, then again, if the no automatics rule is to keep the disabled out of hamb, i apologize for this post." Man up, that was a silly statement and an attempted guilt trip. "You don't want to hear my response to your attempted guilt trip." I'll freely admit that my comment can be read harsher than I intended it. Perhaps a would've been a helpful addition. Lastly, "you never know who your talking to thats why you should treat every one with respect ." I'm a charter member of the "Lifetime paying for my own stupid mistakes" club. Earliest one was climbing a tree in the rain at a friend's birthday party at the age of nine and grabbing a 24K power line 2 1/2 stories up to see what electricity felt like. What's left of my nervous system is more problems than some folks would care to live with. Some of'em are deadly if not managed, and not one of'em do I expect variance for. There are more as well but they're all my problems, I'll tend to'em. This world doesn't give a rusty fuck where I've been or what hells've tempered me into what I am, nor should it. They only notice what I am today, if they notice at all. Smiling seems to help some (except with lawyers), so ...
not sure if this is in the right place but here goes. first, i understand what ya'll are trying to do with this class. very cool. second, you,re very vague about the engines that are legal for this class. just to try and understand let me offer this. i assume a 53-57chevy 235 L6 would be legal while a late model toyota L6 that shares a common head, albeit modernized, and a much stouter bottom end would not even though gm designed it and sold it to toyota who updated it with great success. the other thing that bothered me while reading about this class is that it has been touted by some as a "run what u brung class" or something similar to that. once again i think these cars are awsome, but that just aint so. anybody thats ever been around racing knows that it stops being run what u brung the moment you write the first rule. just my two cents worth. love these cars, but please don't call it something it's not. looking forward to a clarification about the engines to see if i understood correctly. thanks duke182
Nice try, down right smooth. "Modernized" & "updated with great success" pretty much explains the point if you understand what we're doing here. Run what you brung refers to the widely varied styles of build for 1950 era "rail jobs". Again pretty clear if you understand what we're doing here. Perhaps if you define your understanding of the class we can be of more help.
Sorry, but you seem to be missing the point...yes there are "rules", but if you read the rules, specifically rules #12 through #16 the game is explained pretty well and in that concept the class is very much "run what ya brung" and it isn't really "very vague about the engines that are legal for this class". If you read through the build posts here you will see everything from box stock engines to the full race builds like Ron Golden's GMC and moparsled's flathead six that pretty well cover the range. This class is about reliving the early days of drag racing and you have the choice of what and how to build your vision of that era, be it a lightweight V8-60 powered rail, a monster Cadillac flathead V8, a Crosley inline 4 or a straight 8 Buick. Single one barrel carb up to however many two barrels you can stack on it. Hell I doubt there are any here that would object to a full race Lincoln V12 if someone wanted to go there. If that don't seem like "run what ya brung" what does? The rules are pretty wide open on chassis design, engine location and everything else, our main restrictions come not from the class, but the modern safety requirements of the tracks and as long as they are met it's wide open to your imagination. Take some time, research the builds and join in. Once you make a pass in one of these cars it's really hard to live in the modern world.
ok i'll try to keep this short. i think my grasp of the class is consistent with your efforts. i understand it to be an effort to recreate the thrill and excitement of the earliest rail jobs without too many restrictions or too much carnage,thus the safety concerns. maybe when i become a little more technically savy i'll scan and post the picture of me at three in a car just as you wish this class to be, except that safety wasn't as big a concern when my dad and his friend j.d. put it together in 1969 and70. i also understand the use of a standard tranny and a "modern" one at that. even if it does seem wrong at the surface given the ban on "modern engines" it doesn't take that much grunt to rip up an old three speed, and rowing the gears is always more fun than just hanging on. your still not going to sell me on run what you brung though. i only know of two legit examples of this(safety concerns put aside): top fuel, before the nitro ban was pretty wide open, but somebody BROUGHT a better fuel and somebody else made them stop. the other example is known for being void of rules and safety concerns, that's right i'm talking about street racing. where you drive and lineup against whatever you have the balls to and whatever shows up if you think you're the fastest and willing to prove it. this last example is extreme and possibly has consequences that keep many away(probably for the best) but it is really the only run what you brung racing that exists. i think this is a great class and i hope that it is well supported, so i hope nobody gets their feelings damaged just cause i ask a few questions and offer a few opinions. i'm just trying to understand the madness behind the methods!
Maybe I can explain the "run what ya brung" a little. I go to the HAMb drags every year and for the last three years I have carried my HA/GR. It is a slant six, two carter carbs, small cam, 426 rear (open). When they call for the HA/GR's to run, we pull in the staging lanes. Whoever I am paired with is who I am going to run. Anything from a stock flathead to highly modified flatheads or another six. I'm running in the low 14's and there are those who are running in the low 12's. I know this on hooking up to my trailer and pulling 1300 miles one way. If this is not "run what ya brung", I know of no other way to explain this to you. As previously stated in one of the above post, this is a way to get back to the way drag racing used to be. Sure there are some out there that will spend $5000.00 on a motor for this class just because they can. Most of them do not last very long as there is no money to be made, only trophies and that is once a year. Most of the guys that do hang around, do it because they are very passionate about these cars. You have to love this concept or you will not enjoy it. And before you ask, No I have never won at the HAMB drags, but there is always next year. If I pull up side of one of these high dollar motors and he misses a shift, breaks something, then the little guy wins. Robert
RoCk On.... Passion, enthusiasm, persistance, in spite of the high reality you're butt will be kicked to the curb.... Cheers, Drewfus
"If this is not "run what ya brung", I know of no other way to explain this to you." REJ, you could call it what it is. a Heads Up class. i understand what this class is about, so this is my last post about semantics. you can call it what you want but it is not a run what you brung class. top fuel used to be,but somebody BROUGHT a better fuel and it was banned for a while, and even today certain types of blowers are banned. much like the ban on certain parts in the HA/GR class. rendering them both restricted classes, not run what you brung. the only real run what you brung races that i know to exist are grudge races at some tracks, where you run who you want for fun or wagers, in a safe environment. street races where the same thing happens without the safety of the closed track and the fairly new races held by the kkoa in denison texas were anyone can make a pass and you run against your buddy or the guiy next to you. all for fun, no prizes at all. one thing is for sure, this class will continue for a while but it will change over time as people look for ways to go faster to remain top dog. just look at rule 12. it's starting already. this will bring in new people but it will inevetiably run others away. just a word of warning, you change one rule and people will expect others to change also. i have seen some of these cars on trailers at shows but haven't seen them in action, only on video, hopefully i'll be able to see or maybe even participate in this class before it becomes to competitive and over run with high dollar machines that will out class any modest effort i could put forth. one last thought: RUN EM TILL YOU WEAR EM OUT!!!!!
Would 1 5/8" tubing be allowed for the cage, provided it's NHRA spec? NHRA allows both 1 3/4 or 1 5/8.
Seems like if it's good enough for the N(o)H(ot)R(ods)A(llowed) it should be OK for the construction of an HA/GR. Most of us will have to deal with their tech requirements anyway.
Seems reasonable, but the HA/GR rules specify 1 3/4" tubing. I am just all set for 1 5/8" because it's all we use on customer cars. The bonus is the lighter weight of chrome-moly. NHRA allows lighter wall tubing when using chrome-moly. That means about a 40% weight break in a chassis, so it would be a few pounds on a 4 to 6 point cage.
I dont have a problem with inch/five eights on the 5/6 point roll bar ,i do h ave a problem with the chromemoly. These cars are susposed to be something the average guy can build .the average guy cant weld moly,also the cost factor and they did not have moly in the day.once you let moly chassie in its over.i think these cars should be mild steel only.my 2 cents
I LIKE the idea of using the CM, yes it was used in the day. 'round here there's alot of midget, sprint, and hillclimb history (Pike's Peak) and I have seen some INCREDIBLE chromemoly stuff on cars built before the focus of our class. Would a fledgling drag racer building his first rail in his barn have gas welded chromemoly in 1953? Perhaps. Not likely, but, it could happen. It happened around here, as above^^^ as far as cost, and the average guy skills and such, I think those should be up to the individual, not legislated within the class. Let each individual bring what he wishes to the class, whether it be $$ or skill, or vision, or whatever, it's one more means to letting the concept flourish.
What 'sled said...gas welded chromemoly was used in aircraft long before drag racing...the technology existed in the '50s and I imagine there were early rails built that way. Lots of early hotrodders came out of the aircraft industry and Army Air Corp of WWII
FWIW the Piper Super Cub was gas welded orriginally, the sturcture surrounding the people was 4130. I forget exactly when that model was introduced, but it's certainly not new. However I see mudflap's point too. Not to mention no, matter what process you use, 4130 is a PITA to weld right.
Don't know about that last statement...I've torch welded quite a bit of it in aircraft bits and pieces and never had any problems. I've even had a landing gear leg "crash tested" by a friend and the tubing folded, but the welds held.
NHRA won't accept gas welded CM. Must be TIG. For those that are in areas dominated by NHRA and have to pass their tech. How much lighter would a Cro-Mo chassis be compared to a mild steel chassis? A Cro-Mo chassis can use .065" and .058" wall tubing as compared to .118 wall for MS. Many builders use .133 wall MS in order to be sure to pass sonic testing. However, I doubt many (if any) HA/GR cars will ever be sonic tested. Edit: I found a calculator: all 1 5/8 o.d. tube in pounds per foot. .058 wall=.97 .065=1.08 .120=1.93 .133=2.12
I never said it was impossible (or that I hadn't done it). Just that it's significantly more dificult (in ways that can be devious for those un-aware).
True...Just saying I've seen, stick welds, mig welds and tig welds that looked beautiful and had no penetration on one or both sides and failed under small stresses and that the N(o)H(ot)R(ods)A(llowed) mandates for construction make as much sense as saying that it is OK to run a convertible as long as the top is up,(Like the layer of fabric will protect you from injury.) Method does not insure structural integrity.
You can weld chrome-moly. Choose the right mig wire and anneal the weld with a heat crayon and a propane torch. NHRA certification doesn't kick in until 9.99 or quicker. I plan on mild steel rails with moly cage, not for any advantage but safety and that I already have the equipment. Purchasing dies for 1 3/4 mild steel would be as much as the chassis costs. I think the intent is to honor the bare bones construction, but modern safety measures still apply, hence the compliance with current NHRA requirements. They didn't turn back the clock on the safety equipment to be sure appearances were met. Yes, I know there's a big debate on acceptable welding processes for CM. I have some experience in that area, so let's not go down that road. I just want to know if the HA/GR will be permited with .083 1.625 CM tubing in the cage.
The Jalopy Journal
