We had a herd of those 3/4 ton Dodges. Worked on lots of them. And Reo and GMC duece and a half's. Real Willys jeeps to. The good old days. Some Studebaker built 2 1/2 ton trucks. One International. I never heard of anyone getting away with a whole motor out the back door but I did buy a Renton Ordaniance Depot rebuilt GMC 302 for $300. Close to stealing.
http://www.29palmsyardsales.com/item.jsp?itemId=13094267&src=SEARCH Thought I'd toss this out there, since it came up. Old military trucks like this are gettin hard to come by nowadays.
Rich... Is that a Gallivan head on the Plymouth sitting next to yours? Haven't been to Lincoln for a couple years and that's new.
The pictures I posted else where of my Plymouths at the Museum of American Speed as I remember were of the Flathead Plymouth with the twin plug head of my manufacture and the OHV Plymouth with a '57 or so Y block Ford head that is a reasonable instalition. If neither of these are what you are asking about Then I don't know the answer.
I have personally never heard of such a thing, nor did I know that parts from non-similar manufacturers were interchangeable "with obvious need for modification" where can I get more info on this??? sweet pictures, thanks for the info, and the motivation.
There have been lots of post by me about my OHV Plymouth. Mostly on monthly Banger Meet threads, If there is anything you would like to know that I can tell you feel free to PM or Email me. V4GMR@yahoo.com. The Ford head-plymouth block is just kind of a fluk that can only be found by fooling with lots of junk yard parts to see what looks like it might go.
Kevin-- I have a special request will you PLEASE quit putting random weird shit from your posts inside "quotation marks" from a guy who likes to read actual literature, and who understands the PROPER use of the quotation marks, it's disturbing.
ROFL! got it, been working at this, of course this habit was learned, so you will have to forgive If I do it again. s stated before, it is very difficult to convey in text what would be much easier to explain in person. The quotations are usually an afterthought, or usually my thoughts at the time. Thanks for the heads up, I get carried away sometimes. Kevin
If you look on the Bay some guy has a finned head and intake manifold for your motor up for bid. A lot of other neat stuff also.
Hey Kevin... I think you're dead on. I'm going to do that with the Stude Champion in my 1940 Midget Racer. I'm running the flathead now but am going to obtain a "59 Lark OHV engine and bolt that head on the flathead. They were basically the same block, bore & stroke and cylinder spacing. Leaving the valves in the block, I'll just weld 12 short push rods, one from each valve head up to meet the rocker arms for the overhead valves. Eureka. There you have it. Four valves per cylinder and the new X flow (Double Cross Flow) principal as discovered by Professor Smokey Zyzviewski of Polanski UNIVERSITY. The intake charge from the intakes in the block burn and exit through the exhaust valves in the head, while at the same time the incoming charge from the intakes in the head burn and exit through the exhaust valves in the block! Just imagine the power potential of that. I'm going to call it the "MixmasterBaker" It'll sort of look like a Fronty Stagger Valve with fuel injection and exhaust on both sides except at two diferent levels. WoW. The best part is we don't have to deal with multiple cams, chains, belts, tensioners, leaking intake manifold gaskets, warped aluminum heads, and all the maladies of the modern day multi-valve engines. Just normal Studebaker forged rods and crank, and a single cam in the stock position. Maybe you could put a swap add in Craig's List and come up with a '50 Starlight Coupe and we could work together. Now forgetting about the good professor, and probably the Studebaker, it has been done. I've seen it run. I hope we're all having fun here because this has sure been a lively thread. Better entertainment than my TV.
I thought I was on the right track, good to know there is someone with a similar idea out there. Will the weld on the valves hold? what about the compression change due to the exhaust leaking through the pushrod holes into the head? will it be significant? Keep me in the loop on this, ideally, I was trying to see if someone here could manufacture the valve/pushrods necessary for this conversion, a one-off kinda one time deal. This idea, set up properly, will allow for double the intake charge and double the exhaust, allowing for better breathing hence asking if there was a possible hemi setup as this would directly benefit from something like this. F/I running from a CPS would benefit because there is only one cam and there would be no difference like there would be in a Dual cam engine. keeps weight down too. I thought that a roller rocker head would be the best for something like this due to efficiency. Let me know at any time if i'm getting wild here. Since Turbo options are out of the question because of the water block setup, a centrifugal S/C would be the best bet, I imagine with low compression you could easily push 25 or more psi into the chamber, with head studs higher octane and a metal gasket of course you could get a helluva lot more with a very simple meth injection setup too. Direct port or tuned port injection is ideal for a setup like this and with the right intake mani. "the clifford performance one is setup for DPI so you can drill the injector holes" There are a lot of standalone setups out there for F/I I kinda like the idea of running two low/med cfm 4-barrel carbs with a twin charger setup offa the crank. I do wonder if a 218 crank would be better suited for this setup as the smaller stroke would allow for a higher rpm range, giving more power throughout the powerband. I don't know if the power generated would be too much for the poor cast crank, should hardened internals be used for N/A? availability of forged and or stronger internals? price??? Call me crazy.
Oh, I almost forgot, and this is the BEST part, just about anyone can do this. It isn't unobtainium or a spaceship, or anything like that. It all stemmed from an idea. I would be happy to help you. I'll personally take any help that I can get. As of right now, i still want to resto mod the car with the stock 230........ for now thanks guys, Kevin
------------------------------------------ Wow!!! Your idea for a "MixmaterBaker" Studebaker 6, using Professor Zyzviewski's "Double Cross Flow" concept is absolutely brilliant! You and Kevin really, and I mean, really, need to get together and pool your immense talents and technical genius! With a little work (and the forthcoming suitcases chocked full of free money from all Kevin's soon-to be-sponsors of course) I'll bet the two of you, working together could take Professor Zyzviewski's simple and somewhat limited "Double Cross-Flow" concept up least one more level and come up with an even better, more powerful, "Triple Cross-Flow" system! But then why stop there??? Why not go for broke and start working on an even more amazing Quad or even higher level Cross-Flow engine??? With your combined genius, not to mention the money from Kevin's sponsors, the possibilities seem limitless! The mind boggles and the body cringes, just thinking of the earth-shattering power you two guys could wring out of old and supposedly obsolete Stude or Mopar flathead 6's then!!!! A little known fact about Professor Smokey Zyzviewski too. Besides his brilliant pioneering work on the "Double Cross-Flow internal combustion engine, he also headed up the team that designed tested and perfected some of the very first tinfoil hats ever! Today, all over the world and in many other places as well, thousands of happy tinfoil hat wearers praise the name of Professor Smokey Zyzviewski, secure in the knowledge that thanks to his noble work, they too are now safe from all known types of 'mind control' and ''death rays aimed at them from various 'space aliens', ;evil wizards', 'trolls', 'witche's, 'elves', 'the fairy-people', CIA and KGB agents and the "conspirators" here on this list! Mart3406 Factory Authorized Tinfoil Hat Dealer - All sizes in stock - come in today for a low-cost trial fitting and a free brain analysis - or call and ask about our new, low-cost 'pay as you go' line of 'one-size-fits all' disposable tinfoil hats! ===============================
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_valve One of the key points to making this happen is the advantages/disadvantages od ohv vs ohc. There are still multiple variable to explore here, and by no means m I saying that this is now possible or that there is a kit, hidden in the desert, that will allow anyone to do this. On the contrary, but I will say this there are rather spectacular benefits to running the ohv setup on he l-head block. I placed the wiki reference for those not familiar with the tech. the geometry of the ohv design doesn't really allow for more that 2 valves per cyl. this setup has dual purpose benefits. Firstly you can now have four valves per cyl. and second, as was mentioned before, there is a cross flow occuring where intake crosses into exhaust from left to right, and the same occurs from right to left allowing for an almost passive, and very efficient flow of intake and exhaust gasses. This is not the most thermodynamically efficient method however due to design constraint we have to work with what we already have. In an ideal situation the cold air intake charge should enter through the block low and then the exhaust should leave the head high cold falls heat rises making the best use of passive thermodynamics. This is not possible because of the common camshaft and the pushrod/valve design. There is a slight flaw, however. the intake and exhaust gasses have to travel different distances and therefore there is some lack of symmetry. I am not sure what affect this will have on performance but it should be addressed. The springs will no doubt have to be changed because of the inherent mechanical limits of ohv systems and the eventuality of valve float. I am sure that with the help of yall hambsters this dream can become a reality. There is a lot of talent and knowledge and skill out there, and I do hope that if I do not succeed that someone will follow in my footsteps.
Having some difficulty finding any info on this professor, can you provide a link? The cross flow design is well founded, and supported by modern science, however I have never heard of this man, could you enlighten me please? I am not sure that this will work as well one way as it will the other. when the exhaust valves open will the pressure inside the combustion chamber have an equal effect on gasses traveling up and out of the head, and gasses traveling down out of the block? Or will the passive properties of the hot gasses take over and force all or almost all of the exhaust gasses to leave out of the head? Another point, will the increased temps of the head, if the latter occurs, directly effect performance? To what degree? benefits? downfalls?
Too bad mr. duntov passed away, I would have loved to pick his brain. There has got to be someone out there advantageous and stupid enough to try this, other than just me. AUGH! can't sleep too much buzzing about in the ol noggin.
Proving that there is nothing really new. In this months Hemmings there is a cutaway drawing of a Franklin six cylinder OHV engine that also has a more or less L head typs exhaust valve. The extra exhaust valve is at the bottom of the cylinder and had it's own lobe from the cam. It opens just as the piston reaches BDC and closed just after the piston passes the port on it's way up. Very short valve timing in those days. By then the conventional exhaust valve is open and the remaining 30% to 40% exhaust passes out through the head. So two OHV valves one underhead valve.
sounds pretty neat, anyway you can scan it and put it on the post here, or send it to me in pdf format?
I should also mention that I wish that I could have picked Mr. J. Earl's brain as well, the father of the corvette. They had probably forgotten far more than I will ever learn about cars
You know after all is said and done, you are still dealing with a long stroke, low compression engine that will be operating at low to medium rpms on the street. It needs over head valves like a fish needs a bicycle. Rebuild it, balance it, lighten the flywheel,do a good valve job, put in new valve guides, mill the head, put a 2bbl on it or get set of split manifolds. Then enjoy a nice smooth running torque motor, that will last loger than you will, give you a reliable and nearly matainence free engine. If you want to see what another company did to their flathead six look up the Willys Super Huricane F head engine. And see how much they benefited HP wise by putting on a head with an overhead intake valve, while retaiing the in block exhaust valve. I am sure they spent some serious R & D money that they wish they hadn't. Overhead valve trains were introduced when it became evident air flow was an important factor for making big hp with the new high compression engines. These were universally short stroke high RPM engines that got good returns from the application of the ohv design in the 4000 to 6000 Rpm range. Since twisting your long stroke six to that speed would drastically shorten its life, any adcantage you head would give would be very short lived for the expense involved. The one thing you have not adressed in your previous posts is engine footprint. You do relize that the shortblock flathead 6 is designed with pairs of siamesed cylinders. And that most OHV 6 cylinder designs feature equally spaced cylinder bores, This in and of it self makes the adaption problematic as it makes most OHV heads 2 or more inches longer than your flathead.
sent out a message to edgy for his "legendary" cam service heard he has the hookup for aluminum heads too but while searching I found this: http://forums.aaca.org/f154/fs-fenton-aluminum-head-plymouth-flathead-271452.html thought some of you's guys on the HAMB might benefit. At this point, I plan to build it fairly stock, any suggestions? I was thinking along the lines of non-drag light street modifications just to give those mustang gt fanboys something to look at. I like the weber setups that I have seen but stromberg duals sound nice too. I would like to go gear driven for the sound, and have an aggressive sounding exhaust with a loping idle. I think I'll stick on the side of longevity here but I want to drive it too. A lot of this stuff is fairly hard to come by anyone know where I can get it? powerwagons has stock components but where do I go for performance? Having a nice car and not driving it is like having a sexy girlfriend and not banging the F*&K out of her to make her more appealing to her next boyfriend, at least thats my take on it. thanks for the help guys, Kevin
^^^^^Did you read the 2nd paragraph in my previous post????? did you check the rustyhop.com web site? are you wearing your aluminum foil hat????
I'd vote for the Nitrous oxide but only for testing purposes. Shoot a couple of tanks of Nox through that motor and hang on! If it has not sheared off the crank journals and you're still not locked away in the mental ward at that point; do anything and everything to that old six. Cause you've got the Mopar Motor Magic! Richard
How about a JATO (Jet Assisted Take Off) bottle strapped to the roof? Or a little more conservative and go with a couple of siamezed 6:71 huffers, 750 Hollys and a stiff shot of NOS? Just what the old six needs! Now the driver could use a little professional help, over at the Chaplain's office perhaps.
the geometry of the ohv design doesn't really allow for more that 2 valves per cyl. Unless you want to. They don't even have to be parallel.
I have looked at all of the other posts here by members, and appreciate all of the suggested products, thank you. I really do not appreciate the tin hats comments, sure they called Einstein and Tesla crazy too, and some is to be expected, but some of you are just being plain immature about it Seriously, I expect a bit of confusion and criticism, especially since I haven't provided any pictures. I am a terrible artist, and frankly lack the skill to draw out such an elaborate image for everyone to see, I only wish that I could share my imagination and everyone could see what I see. I'll post up some pics tomorrow of the parts I got back from the mech, that he will not need for the work. I know there are some tranny mods that can be done, and since I have the tranny I can get my feet wet with that. It is the stock three on the tree and covered with dirt and road tar? I have the mech decking the head and grinding the crank for the time being, and I have contacted edgerton for my cam needs.
Regardless of the amount of mayonaise that you mix with chicken crap, you won't end up with chicken salad. That old plymouth of yours will be a fun car, and perhaps, one that you can afford on a corporal's budget. Do like so many of the posters on here have kindly advised. Spend your money on an out of the box wiring harness, rebuild the engine with mild modifications, get a new set of seat covers, and enjoy. The old flat head is a great old engine, millions were built, they are bulletproof and will last forever if treated properly. But regardless of what you do to it, it will not run with the big dogs. If you want to run with the big dawgs, spend you money on a modern v8. A SBC makes plenty of power for cheap and there are plenty of other similar combinatioins out there that will move your car down the desert roads. If you ask for advice, be ready to accept it. Don't try to shove crazy ideas down our throats. We are telling you that the view is not worth the climb. What you are proposing may work with a ton of effort and money, but for what? Take the advice of those who have gone before you and let us know how you made out. Semper Fi! WX1
The Jalopy Journal
