Features VINTAGE SPRINT CAR PIC THREAD, 1965 and older only please.

One interesting thing about that car - it had a bolt on cage so it began life as a non-cage car which ties in with the theme of this board. I never knew the history of it other than it started out on the east coast and Dave brought it with him when he moved out here in late 77.

 

Well, here is some Homework for you all if your interested. A few of you have already been on this task, and Information is coming in daily!

Up till now, I've been keeping the "facts" and "hunches" with this car private cause I didn't have the car in my possession. (not that I don't trust those of you I know.. It's that I don't trust the ones that are only reading this thread, and not posting, that I don't know) Well, now it's in my shop and the research has begun.

Here is what I know:

It is thought to be a Kurtis.
It has a real Kurtis Dash tag with the number B-325-48
Curly Doggett raced the car to pretty good success in the Nebraska area in the late 50's.
Before him Dale Doty owned the car and raced it as the Doty Chevy Spl. as far back as 55'
The chassis' construction matches a KK2000 perfectly.
The car's "cockpit area construction" has been "changed or modified"
It appears that the front of the Chassis has been modified.
The car raced on pavement well into the late 70's!
It appears as if it was a FOUR BAR FRONT suspension car from Kurtis. (most KK2000 were single point mount hairpins up front)

Here is what is a "hunch" or "rumored":


Culy Dogett is still alive (fact), was very helpfull and SWEARS that the car raced at the SPEEDWAY in 53'... upon further questioning Curly stated that: "It was the car that Carl Scarboro climbed out of and died of heat exhaustion." That would have made it the McNamara Offy owned by Lee Elkins. I researched that car as much as I could and thing line up and make sense:

Lee Elkin entered a KK2000 in 51', 52', and 53' Then the car disapears in 54' (possibly bought by Dale Doty and shortened into a Sprint car)

That leaves THREE years empty.. 48', 49', and 50'

The McNamara car has not been able to be identified as to what serial # it was, or who LEE ELKIN'S bought it off of.. Yet.


Here is your assignment.

Tell me what you can. If this car turns out to be the #73 McNamarra car my customer is well prepared to under go a complete restoration and bring the "lost" car back to life.

Pictures of the #73 Macnamarra car would be Greatly helpfull!

Even detailed construction pictures of other KK2000 would help me!

Like I said before, a couple of you have already been finding information on the car, and finding a lot! But more is always welcome!

Thanks.






















the rear of the frame, this "capped corner" i believe will match a KK2000



I believe these may be the original rear hair pins with nerf bars added on.



Now, here are some shot's from Gordon Whites book for comparison.







That's it for now, I'll post more info and pic's later today.

J Shaw

 

Josh, in a earlier PM I suggested contacting Mutt Anderson asssuming he was still alive (I think he is). If so was he any help? As Elkins' head wrench, back then, I thought he may have had some input. Just curious.

 

Josh, neet fined , do you have the body ? I, dont think Kurtis had a pop rivet gun, that cars been thru the meat market , you have alot of choping to do, hope you dont put a glass body on it !!

 

Josh,
I just got my computer back from the shop.What a great job you did on the Sprint car. Saw my car in the background, thank your Dad for the use of the tires and wheels.
Jim Graybeal

 

kdxer99,
Gene Aldridge drove my Dad's car [the Southern Star] several times and was a very good driver. My Dad said he was one of the best to drive for him. Gene was also a real good midget driver. He got hurt real bad in a midget and had to quit driving after that. Cliff Griffith also drove For Doc Morris. He made Indy in 1951 driving for Doc. The picture with your Grandmother in the pits was probably taken before warmups, when warmups started they made the people leave that did not belong in the pits. Also in that picture is the Southern Star not painted but in primer, that is only the second picture I have ever seen like that. That might be Joie Ray in the car as the other picture of the car painted like that was with Joie driving.
Thanks for the pictures.
Jim Graybeal

 

Thanks for the info. I met Gene's son a few years back and now we work together. He told me all about Gene's crash and they basically were leaving him for dead and because of a screw up in the emergency room they tended to him and he lived and made a full recovery. He told me the reason he quit driving was his skull was fractured in so many places it could not withstand even a minor impact. Do you have any pics of the Southern Star? I would love to see them. I have tried to get Gene's son to share pictures but I have not had any luck. I'll have to try again.

 

Barny was a friend of mine also. I use to do some welding for him from time to time here in Springfield ,Oh

 

No body at all.. Yep, it's had it's share of "updates" like most cars that were raced through the years.. "Survived" is sometimes a very "loose" term!

NO CHANCE OF A GLASS BODY GOING ON IT... What ever we decide, it'll be correct, and perfect.

Thanks,

JD

 

With the Thrash for the Ellison car, I have been unable to take the time to track him down.. but yes, he's on my list! Thanks

 

You bet!! It was a great display! Thank you!

 

kdxer99,
Yes I have a lot of old pictures. I am in Florida for the winter, but I live close to Louisville, Ky. We will have to get together this summer.
Jim Graybeal
My email is graybeal5@embarqmail.com if you want to get in touch. You to PK

 

Here is more shots of the car over the years.

 

Where at in Florida? My parents retired to Port Charlotte about 11 years ago.
I live in Fort Branch. Thanks for the info. Here's mine.
Jay Bradshaw
j.bradshaw@insightbb.com

 

Hi Josh,
The Elkins 2000 was at Indy last year, beautifully restored by Jim Mann. Jim has been in the vintage race car circles for many years and is very well respected. I would have to believe that Jim did his research before he began. I believe that the Elkins car started life as the Schoof car, but not sure. If you want to pm me, I can give you his phone # to see what he based his info on. Does your chassis number show up in the Kurtis history book?

 

Just a thought, could there have been two Elkins Kurtis 2000s? I have a special interest in your plight and the Elkins cars because I have already restored one of the sprint cars and midget. I can also put you in touch with Mutt or his son Phil. Best of luck

 

Well... There ya go! I believe Jim Mann as well, great guy. I'll give him a call and see if he can shed any light. If he say's his is the #73 Elkins car from Indy that I'm chasing, then I'll just have to drop back and punt!

Maybe there were two.. Maybe not... Maybe it's a totally different car all together.

Just have to keep looking!

Here is some more info brought to me by others on the HAMB and Else where:

I realize we had a discusion about posting "Back and forth" info between fella's when it comes to discussions on certain cars, but I want all of you to see the following info a research for two reasons,
1. It might help you all if your looking..
2. I want you all to know what has already been found and discussed to "curb" any repetition.

From here I'll take it to PM's

Thanks, hope this helps.

"That number doesn’t make sense to me. The last 1948 KK2000 that I know of was #321 that Granetelli bought. #322 is the short wheelbase car built for Hal Cole but is listed as a ‘49. #323-49 is the Wolfe car that Rex Mays was killed in and that Kellar was driving in the ‘55 Vukovich accident.#324-49 was the Bayliss Leverett car. # 325-49 is the first of the front drive Offy powered Novi clones built for Gil Pierson several pictures of which appeared in the “vintage sprint” thread some months ago. However, Charles Pritchard who worked for George Tuffanelli bought two KK2000 chassis and modified them to 100 inch wheelbase cars. These cars did not have the charteristic “horseshoe” radius rod mounts that you see on the other KK2000’s. They also had 4-bar front radius rods not hairpins or single solid bars like the rest. As far as I know they did not carry Kurtis numbers. Do you think that this could be a stretched sprint? I know nothing of KK sprint car numbers, or even if they were numbered. I think that the midgets had their own numbers, usually preceded by a letter prefix to denote the engine type O for Offy, F for Ford (V-8 60). But it seems unlikely that you would stretch a midget that far."

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Gordon White has no Kurtis number for it. It is believed that a guy named Bill Schoof bought this car from Kurtis after his old rail frame Wetteroth was crashed at The Speedway in ‘49 by Frank Burany. Why it is not listed in the Kurtis records is unknown to me. Champ Car Stats.com shows this car as a Kurtis/Wetteroth whether Curly had something to do with it I don’t know or if it is confused with Schoof’s earlier Wetteroth. But if my research is correct. Mike Nazurak won the 1952 Rex Mays Classic at Milwaukee in it (6-8-1952) as the #73 McNamara. The Late Phil Harms did the research that Champcarstats.com uses so we can’t find out why it is listed as a Kurtis/Wetteroth.
It seems to have first appeared at Springfield 8/19/50 with Ray Knepper as driver and is listed as a Wetteroth, Schoof/Bardahl #86, (DNQ). The last 3 races of 1950 it carried #35. It last appeared on 9/17/55 as the McNamara #73 with Mike Magill as driver at the Hoosier Hundred (start 12 finish 16).

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Nearly all of the KK2000s that I have seen have a continuous piece of sheet metal between the two horshoe radius rod attachment points. On the McNmara car this piece stops at the parting line between the hood and cowl. It exists aft of the parting line and perhaps has a bit of an angle from top to bottom front to rear. This may be a key assuming your car has original sheet metal.

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The info is from the Gordon White book "Indianapolis Racing Cars of Frank Kurtis", but he identifies both #325 and #329 as Gil Pierson cars, and gives no number for the Schoof/McNamara car. I can't be sure, but I don't believe that Pierson (or Pearson) had two cars, so I presume this to be in error - there are a few in that book. Sorry, I don't have a scanner, but the book should be still available
-
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Can't make sense of the "B" in that number, either - I believe Frank usually prefixed the engine type, like "O" for Offy or "F" for Ford.

 

....anybody got any pictures of the Elkin's 2000 that Jimm Restored?

thanks,

J Shaw



I realize I'm kinda asking you all to do my dirty work for me, but I also realize some of you are retired, with WAY more knowledge and access to knowledge than I have. I'm in the middle of a TON of stuff at my shop and swamped with artwork.

Thanks!

 

Killer Find Josh, can't wait to stop over and admire your new find.... Congrats.

 

If you go back way back on this thread I posted a story about him askingme to drive his midget one night, was an honor and a lot of fun

 

The Western Mag car was owned by John Siroonian out of Fresno, and was often driven by Ronnie Shuman. I was at a 100-lpper at Ascot one night that Shuman led handily and eventually won, but late in the race banged the wall hard a couple of times coming out of two. He was asked what happened in the victory lane interview, and Shoe calmly replied, "Aw, I was just tryin' to knock the mud outta the wheels. It was vibratin' pretty bad."
Keep in mind he was probably doing close to 80 at that point on the racetrack, and he never let up.

 

Yep that brings the memory back. This pic came from an early season day show they used to run out at Ascot, the track used to get very hard and slick and guys would have trouble not burning the right rear down.

 

Here's some Ascot Park pics for today

the 07 was Tom Lynch in the Lynch Mob sprinter, good chance he spun after I took the shot
I think the 10 is Tom Roa in his family's sprint car
and for the 11 I'm going with Bob Meli in his own car.

 

John, Dick Briggs confirms that Pancho destroyed the Brenn/Reider car the first time out at Duquoin Ill.

 

"Here's some Ascot Park pics for today"

Now were talkin-all the way sideways!

 

Yea, hot laps at Ascot in the summer time- backin it into turn 3 with the sun right in your eyes. Great memories.

 

Thanks for posting these, Mike. Looking forward to more

 

Rico to the press-box.....Rico to the press-box.

more:

 

Thanks for posting these memories. Got any of the #82 car from 1978? I only have a couple of pics of my rookie ride and would like to see more. Thanks again.

 

My personal favorite was Sandy Reed coming over the PA with "close the back gate", seemed like he was saying that all the time.