T-head a great pic of Louis but this car preceded the Monroes which did not come along until 1920. They were called Monroe in 1920 and 1921 because it was they that supplied the money for the new 1920 cars (the Monroes were painted green and the Frontenacs of 1920 were identical mechanically identical but painted maroon as most were in 1917 -1919).The press actually printed a number of pictures of the 1916 engine in this car and anyone that has Borgeson's book the Golden Age can see the drawings of this engine. Somewhere I have the drawings. I corresponded with Ed Roy years ago on these Frontenacs as he was the craftsman that rebuilt the 1920 Frontenac that is in the Indy Museum. I believe Louis designed this engine with Planche with the early work taking place at his shop on Grand River in Detroit (he shortly thereafter moved his operation to Indianapolis). He was extremely proud of the extensive use of aluminum which was probably greater than any other racecar of the day. In fact there was an article published in 1915 with pictures of his first Frontenac (even though most refer to the first Frontenacs as 1916 cars) and the whole article dealt with the extensive use of aluminum (cylinder block, pistons, crankcase, intake, camshaft cover, trans case, gear cover, water pump, oil pump, parts of the clutch, rear axle center section, brake flanges, pedal brackets, starting crank and the body panels. I have read somewhere he even experimented with aluminum frames). The 4 cylinder (3.87x6.375) in the 1919 picture above was an aluminum SOHC with the cylinder block and head and crankcase all being one unit. None of these engines have never survived (although Chuck Davis told me years ago he had a portion of the cylinder head of one which he refused to sell me- LOL). I have always thought of trying to recreate one of these engines and Chuck Davis also thought it would be great to either find one of the 1916 Frontenacs or recreate one as well (although my wallet isn't that fat and it is more wishful thinking than anything else).They had cast iron cylinder liners. They also employed a dry sump system and in pictures you will note the use of oil coolers. Louis was also pretty innovative as he placed two fuel tanks low in the chassis on either side of the frame (the first time I saw this done in a racecar). The weight of these cars was much lighter than anything else on the track (except of course if he came across hs old Cornelian). His camshaft was driven by a shaft and bevel gear which of course was very different from his Monroe Frontenacs which he built for the new 3 liter era to start in 1920 and they were gear driven DOHC works of art which won at Indy right out of the box. I have loaded pictures of these Frontenacs in the past but I am not sure I have anything in my computer with the drawings of the engine. Great cars that very little has been written about (as lets say compared to Miller). The Frontenacs were without question the most successful of the American purposeful built AAA racers OHC cars in the 300 and 180 cubic inch eras. The 1916 Frontenacs had more victories than Miller or Stutz and more than the OHC Mercers during the teens and was the first Indy car to win back to back at Indy be it American or foreign (1920 with the DOHC four and 1921 with the DOHC eight). I will see what I can dig up for some pictures. Plus I found a couple of pictures of the Simplex Zip which I will have to scan. Jim
Apparently I wont get much done in the shop done tonight but this HAMB can be infectious. Here are some pics of the 1916 Frontenacs-Jim and my one of my favorite pictures with my two favorite racers of the day, DePalma in the 299 Packard and Louis in his 1916 Frontenac at Sheepshead Bay in 1917 match racing. The Golden Sub and Oldfields Delage took third this day of match racing.
Just in case anyone wants the pics on the Wisconsin Stutz OHC engines we spoke of earlier with Burman here is one. You guys can save and turn it if you want it-when I did it, it came out goofy.Jim
This car won the INDY 500 in 1914 and was totally restored by the late great Ed Roy. It is part of the INDY 500 collection along with the Monroe/Frontenac engine that Ed also restored and was mentioned in an earlier post.
Love all this racing history. T-Head, Mr. Dillon, FB and everone who has contributed. This thread was neck and neck with T-Head's over at AACA till that one went south. This thread is tops. Learn something new every day. Thought it time to post a couple more from my collection. Starting grid for the 1912 American Grand Prize in Milwaukee. Anyone care to enlighten us with the who and what? This is one of my favorite period images because of the Wright biplane overhead. Will post a few more later. Some comments. The Sweeney Special from a few posts back. What is the story with this vehicle. Looks like it started life as a second generation Maxwell from 1915. Very curious about this. The Tacoma images are very cool. I have never seen material from the later races. Does anyone have any images of driver Harvey (Captain) Kennedy? Later. Bob.
American Grand Prize Wauwatosa Road Race Course 7.88 Mile Road Course 52 Laps/409.76 Miles October 5, 1912 Finish Start Driver Car # Sponsor/Name Chassis Engine Laps Status Points 1 9 Caleb Bragg 41 Fiat Fiat Fiat 52 5:59:27.44 68.397 2 8 Erwin Bergdoll 40 Benz Benz Benz 52 6:14:58.38 65.566 3 11 Gil Anderson 43 Stutz Stutz Wisconsin 52 6:15:22.47 65.496 4 12 Barney Oldfield 44 Fiat Fiat Fiat 52 6:19:54.69 64.714 5 5 Ralph DePalma 35 Mercedes Mercedes Mercedes 51 Wrecked backstretch 6 7 George Clark 39 Mercedes Mercedes Mercedes 50 Flagged 7 10 Joe Horan 42 Benz Benz Benz 47 Flagged 8 3 Ted Tetzlaff 33 Fiat Fiat Fiat 30 Broken radius rod 9 2 Louis Fontaine 32 Lozier Lozier Lozier 21 Sprung steer knuckle 10 4 Hughie Hughes 34 Mercer Mercer Mercer 16 Broken fuel line 11 6 Spencer Wishart 36 Mercedes Mercedes Mercedes 3 Broken drive shaft 12 1 Bob Burman 31 Benz Benz Benz 2 Broken piston -- -- Bob Burman 42 Benz Benz Benz X Relieved Horan -- -- David Bruce-Brown 44 Fiat Fiat Fiat -- Raced by B. Oldfield -- -- Harry Nelson 32 Lozier Lozier Lozier -- Driven by Fontaine -- -- Ralph Mulford 47 Knox Knox Knox -- DNS, ignition -- -- Joe Dawson X X X X -- Did not appear
OK, Buildy! Fantastic information. What took you so long? Ha! Here's another from Milwaukee. Joe Horan in his Benz. Spectator notes from 1912 on the back of the image say the Benz was yellow. Looks like Oldfield there in the background, but I'm not sure who the other is. Later. Bob.
Bob, You are correct. The only information i have found is from the 1917 Independence Day races in Kansas where it is listed as a Maxwell and winning a five mile feature race-{450ci cars}. In fact it was fitted with a Maxwell engine previously used by Barney Oldfield in the 1915 American GP. What the name implies is for someone else to explain, hopefully.
Alfa is the Touring-bodied 8c 2300 (chassis 2211094) that Uihlein owned for decades and is still in original condition today.
Jim, from a machinist's viewpoint I'd love to see the tooling for the valves seats in the Frontenac. The valves at least on the exhaust are canted. That would make for some trickey machine work. Offys are similar but the windows in the side are larger. Were head gaskets really THAT much of a problem?
I think the "How'd they machine that?" is part of the fasination of race cars from any era. The Speedy Dry brake drum turning tip T Head posted was really neat. Back in the Bugatti restoration days we used a New Way valve seat cutter, a hand held tool you turned to recut valve seats. I wonder if they were hand cut originally or was there a machine setup?
Buildy, Thank you for the info on the Wauwatusa race. The Wishart Mercedes was an ex Factory GP car that he rased at INDY in 1911 and 1912. It later evoleved into a HISSO V8 powered dirt track car last raced by Larry Beals in the mid 1920. it sat in an Ohio collection until about 10 years ago. Sadly (IMO) it is restored to its somewhat original 1908 apperance in Germany.
"Looks like Oldfield there in the background, but I'm not sure who the other is." I believe the FIAT driver facing the camera is Teddy Tetzlaff. Great photo, Rapid Robert. 37 Kid-you are welcome!
The AAA Contest Rules interpreted the engine displacement of 300 cubic inches to mean anything under 301 cubic inches, therefore 300.7 cubic inches was acceptable.
NoboD, whether it was poor head gaskets I cannot say for certain but they were trying for strength and light weight and felt one large package had certain advantages. They were not big on gaskets to begin with and there may very well be sealing issues with detachable heads so they felt this was the wiser approach. Louis and Planche did experiment with iron engines (as did Miller at pretty much the same time before he moved onto aluminum) and that experiment probably taught them things that helped in a more successful design with aluminum. Whatever you think about the engines they were quite impressive to look at. Rather than go back through some old notes Borgeson's book may be easier to rely on. "The cylinder head, block and crankcase were one integral casting making it a foundryman's nightmare. A pretty touch that added to the complexity was that all four valve seats for each cylinder consisted of a single sort of cloverleaf iron casting, around which the aluminum itself was cast. Huge sideplates in the cylinder block water jacketing probably were downright necessary in locating the cores. Thin walled, cast-iron cylinder liners were shrunken into the preheated block." Just for the record and T-heads reference to an iron engine, Louis and Planche did build a couple of iron engines that had the same style of integral casting and DOHC and spur gears to handle the camshafts much like the later 1920 engine but these engines they felt were too heavy and lacked in power and they moved onto the aluminum engine that is in the above pictures. I may have to research more on when he completed all of his study and experiments as I said earlier there was an article on his extensive use of aluminum in 1915 and so he had to have finished his iron experiments in late 1914 or early 1915 I suppose which is pretty ahead of the curve in getting ready for the 1915 season where many of the OHC cars from across the pond would be competing.-Jim
Just found this in a Danbury Connecticut Fair newspaper story. I've seen a photo of this car somewere else, is it a Buick Bug with an upgraded radiator?
Camera isn't as crappy as I thought, more photos, this is from a 1969 article that covered different eras of racing at the Danbury Fair
Don Capps thanks for the heads up on the 301. I knew I had it somewhere in my notes but my filing system is not something that they give awards for and I did not want to stick my foot in my mouth unnecessarily. Model A Keith the Frontenac picture and that whole episode is tragic and somehow captivates me. Here is an original newspaper article I have hanging in my shop from the next day in LA describing the tragedy. In the upper corner you will see a print of Gaston and O'Donnell going at it just moments before the crash-Jim
I am curious as to how De Palma is listed in fifth and yet did not finish the event, a requirement at the time. Although a lap down when Fred Wagner wavered the checkered on him, George Clark as credited with a fifth place finish. De Palma and Alley were on the last lap when the crash occurred, but were not credited with finishing the event.
Quote; Love all this racing history. T-Head, Mr. Dillon, FB and everyone who has contributed. This thread was neck and neck with T-Head's over at AACA till that one went south. This thread is tops. Learn something new every day. Rapid Robert. Yes, the thread that we built at the AACA has been micro managed and killed, great photo below I found that shows it driving away to the automotive junkyard. On a more positive note, I am thinking of actually starting my own thread and hosting it with my website, I can call the shots myself and not be at the mercy of someone else. The software is all out there and I would like to start with one at first, a pre-1942 general site that would be just like the last one. If that one works OK also maybe do a prewar racing thread. I am pretty independent and after the last stab in the heart I want to do my own thing. I would like to make it both entertaining and interesting. What I need to know is will you people come over and participate? Tell me what you liked and did not at the other one. It would be set up very similar to this. So let me know what you think if you had been watching that thread. Best, T-Head
The one mile driving track portion of the circuit was boarded over as were a few other sections of the circuit.
First, are you sure that this is Daytona Beach? Second, in 1937 and 1938 there were two beach races on the Eastern coast of Florida besides the stock car race at Daytona Beach. You had a race in March 1937 at Ormond Beach over a one mile beach oval and in July 1938 you had a race at New Smyrna Beach also over a one mile beach oval. There also a beach race at St. Augustine in the 1920s.
The Jalopy Journal
