FB, The fourth car from the right in the photo below apparently is a Zip driven by Louis Lecocq at a race in Kansas, 1915. It is stated that this is the first racing car built by Simplex in 1910 then bought by Louis Disbrow in 1911. He later spent thousands on its refurbishment including a sleeker body which is probably the car in the photo that Jim posted. I don't know how many Zip machines were built or how many Disbrow owned but on the insistance of his new wife that he gives up racing he sold a Zip to John Raimey possibly in late 1915 or early 1916. I have info from a Kansas newspaper article stating Raimey was racing this car at the '16 Independence Day races. Now, the confusing part for me is the car driven by Lecocq is said to be the last Zip to be raced, so where did the car sold to Raimey come from? Another interesting feature in the photo is the Louis Disbrow driven Briscoe 5th from the left and the factory built Case 'Jay Eye See' he later drove and owned i think.
I have noticed that you use the term "American GP" quite frequently. There was once the "Grand Prize of the Automobile Club of America," which came to an end in 1916 and really has little to do with the United States Grand Prix which surfaced in either 1958 or 1959. This is due to Alec Ulmann managing to blur things a tad by titling his December 1959 event at Sebring the "II United States Grand Prix," even though the "I United States Grand Prix for Sports Cars" run at Riverside in October 1958 would seem to be the other possibility for the "I" running of the event. A quibble, perhaps, but historians tend to be that way at times.
Earl Cooper poses at the July 1913 Montamara Festo races at the Tacoma Speedway behind the wheel of his Stutz. On July 5th, Cooper won the 200 mile "Golden Potlatch" race in Tacoma with a time of 2:49:32 and an average speed on 71 mph. He later also won the 250 mile Montamarathon. Tacoma Public Library caption.
Don, I have often thought about this photo and the description that is attatched to it which is why i asked the question. I have a feeling it's a race for the Henry Seagrave Trophy in recognition of his 1927 run but i'm not so sure if it's at Daytona or Pendine Sands. Quibble away my freind. As i have stated in previous conversations with Jim, my knowledge of American racing is somewhat nonexistent which is the sole reason i started this thread. BTW, doesn't Grand Prize really mean Grand Prix?
"These look as if they are from the Betts materials. Any idea if they are? " Hello Don, Not sure of the origin of the results,only that they are from the period. IIRC the seller said they were in the Floyd Clymer collection.
A group of photos all found together and labeled Laurel, Maryland. Left to right a Benz, Burman in the Blitzen, A National which appears to be a converted roadster or touring with wild high backed seats and last unidentified. I am guessing this group is from around 1912.
"On a more positive note, I am thinking of actually starting my very own thread and hosting them with my website. The software is all out there and I can call the shots myself. I would like to start with one at first, a pre-1942 general site that would be just like the last one. If that one works OK also do a prewar racing thread. After some people noticed what happened to that thread I have had a couple of offers to do the same thing for other sites that came out of the woodwork. I am pretty independent and after the last stab in the heart I want to do my own thing as I have been here for the last 35 yrs. What I need to know is will you people come over and play? Tell me what you liked and did not at the other one. It would be set up very similar to this. So let me know what you think if you had been watching that thread. Best, T-Head" T-Head, Sure,I am game. I hope we would keep this thread going here as well. It seems lots of new HAMB people come in and see this thread and become interested in early racing,which is a good thing. This is something you may consider,you can set up photo threads at a site such as Flickr and then not have to worry about server capacity,etc. You can set it up to have administrative control,etc. What I like about it is there are no constraints with in reason on file size or amount with a pro account which is only 24 bucks a year. I have one myself,along with a Smugmug which is another,fancier way to go. PM me if you want to discuss this further,this is just an idea.
Buildy, I do not want to interfere with this thread as it is wonderful. I would do a general pre-1942 site first and maybe pre war racing afterward. If I do I will take you up on the offer to help. I can get links from some other good sites around the world including this one and I think done correctly it would work wonderful. I am looking for constructive comments from people that used to watch the other thread I started before it was killed. Best, T-H
David, Everything I have an interest in is covered here on the HAMB, and new info is added daily, stuff that has been hidden for nearly 100 years in some cases. Sure I'll visit a new site if is up and running, I'm clueless how all that stuff works or the cost of running it. Ryan hasn't been buy to post an opinion on how this thread effects the HAMB, I sure enjoy it and hope it is looked at as a positive addition.
Keith, There isn't much known about the private life of Prince de Cystria except his father was also a Prince and his wife was a socialite Princess. Cystria himself was a tennis loving playboy that spoke fluent English, some would say even better than the Windsor royals. He was not a bad driver aswell having previously driven the T32 'Tank' in Europe. He was one of three wealthy French sportsmen hired by the factory in hopes of Indy glory, the other two drivers were wealthy Argentines. As to the cars, they were brought into the country by the Argentine de Alzaga through a New York dealer and then sold off to the other four after Bugatti could not afford to field all five cars. These cars were the T30 model with a straight eight 2.0liter engine, it's predecessor being the 1922 Strasbourg GP car. The chassis was the T22 'Brescia' with 4 wheel brakes, hydraulic fronts and cable operated rears. The bodies were designed by Bechereau. Although it is often said these cars failed at Indy due to a lack of oil pressure it was also the plain bearings that were a problem. Of note de Alzaga had actually ordered them with roller bearings. There is only one survivor from these five, that being the de Alzaga black car. Picture might be on the first page i think. Photo below of a completed body with Zborowski seated.
T-Head, Sounds good! I am interested in general pre-war cars as well as racing. I should be able to find photos to add to a general thread. I`ll be glad to help if you decide to do a racing one as time goes on as well.
Don't automatically assume that "Daytona" means Daytona Beach. Ormond and New Smyrna are locales close by and, as mentioned, did have beach races in the late-Thirties. There was a bit of racing in the Jacksonville area during the Thirties, but I have not been able to establish that any of it was on the beach during that time. As an aside, automobile racing in the South Atlantic and Southeast region during the period after the Great War has, for the most part, been largely ignored or forgotten or simply too hard to research and is, therefore, simply a black hole to most. Contrary to what seems to be the popular notion that it suddenly sprang Athena-like in the late Thirties in the form of stock car racing moonshiners and Bill France, the truth is both far more complicated and infinitely more interesting. "Grand Prize" means, well, Grand Prize. Given that by the beginning of the second decade of the Twentieth Century that the United Sates was the nation leading the world in the production of automobiles, the ACA apparently choice the title of its race for the ACA Gold Cup rather carefully. Lead leads me to comment on the issue of speed records set in the United States until the middle of the Twenties. As the US representative to the AIACR, the ACA handled the international sporting and touring issues for the United States as part of an agreement between the AAA and the ACA in the aftermath of their squabble which ended in the 1909/1910 timeframe. Since the AAA and not the ACA was the club conducting and sanctioning these record attempts, the AIACR did not recognize them. While the ACF and the AIACR sporting committees may have been joined at the hip, any ire on this should officially be directed at the AIACR. Only when the ACA gave up, first, its seat on the committee regarding touring issues -- the main focus of the AIACR, contrary to popular belief -- and then the US seat on the CSI to the AAA by the 1927/1928 period did this situation find a resolution.
I do not think that these pages were created contemporaneously, but rather compiled later on, especially given the similarity of the pages to what I have seen of what is supposedly the Betts material. If these are, indeed, from the Floyd Clymer collection then I wonder where he got them? Then again, perhaps they came from the Russ Catlin or Bob Russo materials, again due to the similarity of what I have seen of the materials that were placed on microfilm by Gordon White. Selling these off a page or two or three at a time seems to be a rather shabby way to treat such material, but then again history always takes the back seat to commerce, the latter having very little to no concern for anything but its market value, not its use to scholars and historians.
Speaking from my own experience, having created and then lost a forum due to serious disagreements regarding rather fundamental issues of philosophy, if you will, with the editor, I understand the urge, the need to "do it your way." If I could have ever figured it out and had the time, that is exactly the route I would have taken. I am a historian, I am not some interested in nostalgia or the rambling and mumblings of enthusiasts. However, although I belong to the SAH, I am not really all that much a "car guy," since I am far more interested in the Zeitgeist and the clockwork mechanism of the racing world than the gearing of such and such a car at such and such a race. I can and have "done cars" -- however, after what I did on the Maserati 250F, which others beat me to in the end, I am pretty much cured -- and so forth, but I would rather amble off and peer into the dark corners and generally neglected areas. One comment and then I will shut up, but the internet has generally been a failure when it comes to automobile racing history. Only a few sites are really up to snuff and the usual level of discussion at a forum is abysmal: trivia passing as information, disconnected factoids, meaningless opinions (rants and gibberish derived from enthusiasm passing as knowledge), lack of any context or azimuth, poor to no moderation, nostalgia being pawned off as "history," and so forth and so on. Other than that, I have nothing to say on this matter.
Don, the stubborness on the part of the Americans played a big role in the outcome of many decisions during that time. When one considers the speeds acheived by DePalma and later Milton and compare it to the European effort then i can see the argument coming from the supporters of the AAA. Even the so called "AIACR Approved" timing equipment used by the Sunbeam outfit doesn't sit too well with me. Rules are rules i suppose.
Don, While I have respect for the serious historians,personally I am more interested in the photographic record and the nuts and bolts of the machines than the political machinations that went on behind the scenes.
With his smile forming crinkles around his eyes, race car driver Eddie O'Donnell posed for the camera prior to the Tacoma Classic, held July 5th, 1920, at the Tacoma Speedway. When crowd favorite Ralph DePalma's French Ballot broke down prior to the race, O'Donnell offered him the use of his Duesenberg. O'Donnell himself drove team-mate Eddie Miller's car with Miller riding as mechanic. They were the eighth and last car to pass the finish line. Tacoma Public Library caption.
In September of 1914, racing fever over miniature racers and their junior drivers took Tacoma by storm. The "cycle cars" were in town for Labor Day races scheduled at the Tacoma Speedway. Most of the cars and drivers were from California, although Tacoma boys Joe Rovegno, Clarence Healy, Phil "Babe" Sullivan and "Swift" were scheduled to race. All the boys were feted by Tacomans and felt that the city "sure did treat a fellow fine." Six of the cars and drivers are pictured on A Street. At the left rear is the Park Hotel, at 802 A St. The building at the front left may be the J.F. Hickey Motor Car Co., at 812-14 A St., and a Seattle-Tacoma interurban car provides the background. In the front row are: (l to r) veteran junior driver Mott Haynes in his Mercer and novice driver Walter Gossman in his Red Devil. In the center are Homer Loudenclos, in either the Puegeot or the Hudson he designed, and Al Bruce in his National. In the rear are an unidentified car and Shirley Williams in a Theim. The cars were designed and built, in most cases, by the drivers themselves. They were in some cases backed by the motor companies whose names they carried. It was common for companies to bankroll race cars as advertising. Tacoma Public Library caption.
A couple more of Ballot. Ralph DePalma in the first and in the second photo with Jimmy Murphy following in the Duesy at the 1921 LeMans GP. I'm pretty sure the straight eight Ballot had a 3 main bearing engine. Kind of looks like a Peugeot rip off. T-Head, those cycle car photos are great.
Buildy you are right, the caption for the group photo on the track is here. The Tacoma Speedway had a special treat in store for its fans on Labor Day 1914, the first "cycle car" race to be held north of California. Cycle cars were built with motorcycle engines and were designed, for the most part, by their junior drivers. Three races would be held, a ten mile dash, a ten mile free for all (featuring the losers in the first race) and a 40 mile free for all, with a top prize of $250. Pictured in a horseshoe are, left to right, an unidentified car, the Mabel Normand's Keystone Theim driven by Shirley Williams, the Red Devil driven by Walter Gossman, the Pantages Bug driven by a Tacoma boy identified only as "Swift," unidentified car #3, unidentified, unidentified, Allan Bruce and his National, Harry Hartz and his #22 Indian and a car designed by Homer Loudenclos. Although the weather stayed dry for the trials, rain made the track unsafe on race day. The races were rescheduled and again rained out. Discouraged, the drivers returned to sunny California.
Checkout the car behind the #4. Looks like a minature underslung Renault without the radiator. Even the #4 has some similarities to a Mercer.
I found this photo labeled only Barney on the Boards and it is dated March 17 1915. Based on that which of you sleuths know which track, I guess it was somewhere in the south based on the date in March. Looks like it maybe a Stutz?
T-Head, I have Barney at Venice Cal on 3-17-15 in the Maxwell #1-Jim Parsons would be in the very loose #22 Stutz. Looks like Barney`s mech. is getting an eyeful! As far as I know Venice was a dirt road course,maybe with a board section?
I hope all of you get a chuckle out of this post card. It is sent from Roann, Indiana evidently by Carl to the folks back home. He sent this card on Sept. 22 1916. This is what it looks like it says to me. This is my boss and I and the car we built it is some racer How is every body the boys are all well Carl We can only assume they took Indy by storm for the next 500 with the Alligator.
Jim, thanks for the explanation on the single cast engine. That explains and makes the valve arrangement much easier to understand, the seats and guides would be part of the cast in insert. You historians look at pics to see who you recognise or know the history of who owned a particular car. I look from a build standpoint of HOW it was done. Thanks I enjoy it all.
T-Head I would call it the upside down canoe.... What did that one start out as? Could you imagine Myron Stevens showing that to Harry Miller and saying "all done Boss".
The Jalopy Journal
