It is according to what they are. So are good and some are not so good and most are somewhere in the middle when it comes to the history of American automobile racing. It used to surprise me to realize that no one had taken the time to update Al Bochroch's American Automobile Racing, An Illustrated History until I thought about it. The machinery, the nuts & bolts aspects are usually done fairly well when it comes to American racing history, but it is the squishy, messy "other" stuff of history that needs a lot of work to be done on it. While there are at least tens of thousands of books on the history -- or something like it -- of Grand Prix and/or formula one and the two FIA world championships, there is nary a book that actually tackles the National Championship Trail in that sort of detail and depth. Similarly, for every million words written about the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and its International 500 Mile Sweepstakes race, maybe one word on the other races. Essentially, the state of American automobile racing history -- as well as automobile racing history in general -- is somewhere between poor and pathetic. It is getting better, but it has a very, very long way to go. However, that is simply my view since there seem to be others who disagree.
This is another interesting machine that may have been a match racer like the Simplex Zip. The first photo shows Cendrino in the Fiat Cyclone. The lack of a tank of any good size indicates it was a match racer. Study the photo closely underneath the driver and you will see his FEET resting on a little shelf hanging from strapping NO MORE THAN 4 " above the ground. In the second and third photos we have Ralph DePalma on the Minnesota Fair Ground track were he did a mile in 50 4/5 sec. In the last photo we have DePalma and Kirpatrick in a three mile race at the same track where he set a record? time of 2.39 minutes for the three miles. I can't identify Kirpatrick's car as the photo is poor but the radiator shape seems to possibly suggest a Welch but perhaps someone can identify it. My question is does anyone know anything more about these Fiats and could DePalma possibly be driving the same car later on with the one piece cowl and seats body removed and with a small flat firewall? The wheels on the car DePalma is driving are more substantial and seem to have a larger section tire at least on the front.
That is the only photo I have of it!! It was pulled off of a computer programing company site. They were called "Zip programming of Simplex" or something.
Lots of good Pope's in that one. #1 looks like Louis Disbrow's "Pope Hummer" that also ran in the Savannah Grand Prize #2 Looks like a cut down 50hp Pope. #6 is a National.
More Old Orchard Beach photos and some details. The beach at low tide made a good hard racing surface; races could take place two hours either side of low tide. The start and finish line was the pier and Googins' Rocks was the southernmost turning point. Competitive auto racing on Old Orchard Beach probably began as early as 1903 although the first recorded formal race was in 1911 on Labor Day weekend in front of crowds estimated at 50,000 people, the last was in 1913. The first photo is an EMF in 1911. The second is unidentified, it looks like a Mercer but is not one, perhaps someone can identify the make. The third image a postcard shows a similar line up as in Buildys earlier postcard but from a different angle and some of the cars have different numbers. The last is a postcard that I believe the photo was taken from the top of the pier with the note that speeds exceeded 100 mph during a race around 1913.
this is such a great thread! Does anyone out there have any period photos of the Trossi/Duller Indianapolis Duesy at Brooklands in the 1930's? Or any pictures of Jack Duller the owner? I have found the pictures of the car and of George Duller on the Brooklands site, but I haven't found any pictures of Jack Duller and I am wondering if anyone out there has any period pictures of this car in their own collections?
T-Head, the first pic of the Cedrino 'Cyclone' seated with his brother, is probably a 1904 75hp model and a highly modified version and fitted with the 60hp engine. I haven't taken the time to look for any info on this particular car and after the events of the past few days i won't even bother. I've seen a photo or two of the FIAT's that raced in the '04 Vanderbilt Cup but they don't seem to match. If you can find a photo of the William Wallace entry it closely resembles the 'Cyclone' but i'm not sure. From what little information about the FIAT cars in America i have gathered the name E.Rand Hollander rings a bell. He was an importer or dealer from N.Y. of these such cars. Cedrino was also New York FIAT agent after arriving from Italy. Whether there is a connection there i'm don't know. Maybe one of these two brought one of the Coppa Florio cars over to the U.S. I also have a feeling that David Bruce Brown drove this car at Daytona-Ormond Beach 24hr races in March 1908. Was he sharing it with Cedrino or was there another Cyclone? Apparently George Robertson drove a FIAT Cyclone one week after Cedrino's death against H.Kirpatrick in a Hotchkiss. Possibly the same car he drove at the Vanderbilt Cup. This i believe is the same car racing against De Palma in the former Cedrino? Cyclone at the Hamline dirt track. 11 Sept. 1909.
Don, I know I have read of the early AAA championship and thought it may have been a couple of years but will defer to you that it may have been one only the one year. My main focus has always been the 300 inch era and although I have read quite a bit of the other eras my research may be a bit iffy. Even from 1916 on, it almost seems that the whole National Championship was a bit like who's on first, especially 1920. As to Oldfield my feelings have always been that he was a great showman, self promoter and good dirt track short racer. I have in the past pointed out that his trips down victory lane were few, although he was a character. Records were always a big deal to him as it helped to sell tickets when his railcar pulled into town. I have noted a number of times as to his lack of any major victories but I also realize there are those that feel he is one of the greats and I kind of let the record speak for itself without piling on too much. I have read how great he was on one extreme to the other extreme that he was little more than a gadfly and he falls somewhere in between the two. Certainly not one of the all time greats as I believe his only AAA victories were with his Maxwell, the one at Venice and one I have read three days later at Tuscan. Other than that his Cactus Derby victory on the point to point race that was pretty much it in bigger events. There were many great racers during the era he ran and they get little ink sadly. Hopefully some of our discussion can help rectify that just a tad That being said though there are more enthusiasts on the HAMB and nostalgia buffs than card carrying historians which is not all bad.This site is a traditional hot rod site and Ryan gives us some leeway with our trip down Auto Racing nostalgia lane which suits most of fine. I have seen some threads closed for going down the wrong alley so most of us throw our .02 in the ring and enjoy the trip for what it is. It will probably never get too heavily into the SAH type discussions which it never was intended so whatever. Too many changes and it may die either a slow death from boredom or if it turns into the old west as I have witnessed, we may witness a bullet put in it and find ourselves standing around lamenting its passing. That being said all of us appreciate those that have put the extra effort into researching this great old era of auto racing and all of us appreciate everyone's .02 as long as it is worth .02 I suppose -Jim
I have not researched the Cyclone with the intent of tracking down its true history but seem to run into it here and there. The Fiat Cyclone has a colorful history. The Cedrino car you pictured I believe is the same car that DePalma drove in 1909. Cedrino was killed driving this car at Pimlico race track in 1908 and the car was heavily damaged including the wheels which I believe collapsed. DePalma who had been driving the Allen-Kingston made a big step up (maybe due to some connections) and became a part of the Fiat team for the 1908 races at Savannah. The Fiats for the big events were quite large so the Cyclone was quite another animal. The Cedrino car I am pretty sure was the same car DePalma drove in 1909 so it may look a bit different and the wheels may be different, although I have not studied it at length. This car seemed to have a life of its own I believe and no matter what any driver did it never seemed to go away. Oldfield set a bunch of dirt track records with the Fiat Cylcone in 1914 and in 1915 he purchased one of the Mercer type 45 (450 ci motors) from George Bentel to put in the car as his old Cyclone motor was worn out in late 1915. After that I believe he put an old Duesenberg motor in it which I mentioned somewhere and Fred Roe ending up sending me a picture of it and thanked me as he had the picture that was in the Gebby collection and I guess it put a story to the old photo. I have an old photo of a Simplex Zip from 1907 that was allegedly built to compete against DePalma but since DePalma did not drive the car to any extent to 1909 probably I could never figure it out. My research material though from this era is thin to say the least so I have to hit and run with any info-Jim
Jim, is the Allen-Kingston the car he made his debut as a racing driver? Starting the race in reverse gear.
Kurtis, the earliest race that I have DePalma in as a contestant was the 1908 Briarcliff in an Allen-Kingston. In fact he drove against Cedrino in a Fiat Cyclone. I have read about him starting out in reverse and backing into Oldfield but I have never been able to document it and I am not sure where this rumor (or?) startedand I do not believe it ever happened at Briarcliff. In Gary Doyle's great work on DePalma (Gentleman Champion) he touched on it as well. Gary is a pretty good researcher and I believe a great story teller (and I mean with true stories and not hyperbole) and his research showed up nothing in that regard. Gary did say that maybe at the Fort George Hill Climb in 1907 he may have backed into Oldfield, if DePalma even ran in 1907 (or even prior to Briarcliff). It may have happened but I cannot state with certainty. In any event his earliest contests be it Briarcliff or one early (if there were any) were not ones for the record books. He had a couple of accidents in the Allen-Kingston and when he moved onto Fiat he could then show that he had what it took to wheel a racecar. Now DePalma was without question one helluva racer.-Jim
If you rate Barney Oldfield by race results, he doesn't come out as one of the greats. But if you rate drivers by who made the most money, I would guess he was near the top. As Don said, Oldfield entered the first AAA championship in 1905, when he was probably at his prime, and he won. Months later he received a wood plaque in the mail for his efforts. (so to speak). I guess he probably said, "I risked my life for this? Screw that, I'm going back to barnstorming where the real money is."
Lee, I actually like Oldfield and he had a pretty heavy foot. His dirt track records were pretty impressive and even in his later years with the Sub he could wheel a car on dirt. Why he did not score any other large AAA races is a debatable topic. He had a few decent cars and with a little luck maybe things would have gone the other way. Like so much of history though perception may be different than reality and not just with auto racing. Just ask who had the first automotive assembly line and many will chime in Ford yet Olds had his many years before although Ford perfected it. With auto racing there were many pretty good drivers who have gone down as little more than a footnote. If we can change the footnote even maybe just a bit then what we are doing is not all bad. I try not to diminish Oldfield as the guy was a real character who I believe added to the sport. If someone was to ask me to list the great drivers of the era he would not be the guy that came to mind first.Jim
I'm new here as a contributor, but have been enjoying the thread as onlooker for some time. It goes without saying, this is a great thread and a wonderful education. Here is another from Old Orchard Beach to add to T-Head's collection. This is Harry Grant, in a 54hp Alco.
While we are on the subject of beach racing who can identify this racer. My first thought is of the coarse Winton Bullet but the very vertical engine throws me although it maybe a Winton. Who can identify this early racer and the beach it is on?
While we are on the subject of Ralph De Palma & Barney Oldfield i came across an article dated July 15. 1908. reporting on a race at the Hamline track in St.Paul, MN. Going by the description of the article there were not many drivers in attendance and by the sounds of it, the occassion was a match race between a 120hp Hotchkiss {no driver info} which failed to show up and Barney Oldfield in the Stearns racer. Also of note is the Allen-Kingston driven by De Palma. Entered in the stock cars of 40hp and under class run over 5 miles, De Palma took the win against ? Patterson. He later entered another 5 mile race for 60hp cars and defeated the Stearns of Oldfield and Maurice Bernin in a Renault in a time of 4.56 & 3-5 seconds. In fact the Renault is possibly the same car that ran at Briarcliff. The only other race of the day was the 5 mile free for all record trial. The holder of the track record was Oldfield and he entered three cars this year with himself in the Stearns, Walter Seymour in the Christie and get this, he put Ralph De Palma in the Green Dragon now re-christened as the Red Devil. This is new to me as i've never known one of them to have driven the others car. It seems they were buddies before they became bitter rivals. Also, i haven't seen this race in any reports, maybe the historians would like to chime in. Its also worth noting the performance of the Allen-Kingston. This car didn't race much due to the company's financial situation but with a small 40hp engine it won it's fair share of races most notably with De Palma behind the wheel. I've always liked the underdog. Another interesting fact is the designer of the car and the man who hired De Palma is Fred E.Moscovics, the same fellow who would later design and build the Playa del Ray boardtrack. For some reason i have never had much interest in Barney Oldfield. A self proclaimed 'Worlds greatest racing car driver' who once denounced the sport because of the fierce competition amongst drivers who would die for the prizemoney on offer. Hypocritical don't you think. There are two articles i have read that are worth the time.. first one is titled "Is the Game Worth the Candle" written by Oldfield himself about the fatalities that were occurring almost on a regular basis. This can be found in the August 1911 Popular Mechanics. Another is an article about his 1910 match race with black boxer Jack Johnson. This is great article. www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0SAF/is_1_29/ai_n12417354 Ralph De Palma - ALLEN-KINGSTON @ Briarcliff.
This is another photo that I have a suspicion of being at a beach. The photo was labeled only James L Breese, Daimler 35 HP. Could it be Breeze? I found out the following about Breese. He was James L. Breese, best friend of architect Stanford White who did design work for both his New York townhouse and studio at 5 West 16th street and his Southampton country estate (both still standing). He was the nephew of the portrait artist, inventor of the telegraph and co-founder of the National Academy of Design, Samuel Finley Breese Morse ( aka "The father of American Photography"). He was a leading light in New York's turn-of-the-century social and artistic upper crust. James L. Breese owned and operated the Carbon Studio in partnership with pictorialist Rudolf Eickemeyer Jr., who later became a member of Alfred Stieglitz's The Photo Secession and The Linked Ring. Is that the Ormond Beach garage in the background? The Automobile looks very early to me from the 1904-06 time period. It looks like a standard car stripped of its body with a box for a seat. I am wondering if this is the same Breese/Breeze from NY that made carburetors and a light weight racing car in the teens? Welcome to picture ferret extrodinare Twin6.
Quote Kurtis; T-Head, the first pic of the Cedrino 'Cyclone' seated with his brother, is probably a 1904 75hp model and a highly modified version and fitted with the 60hp engine. I haven't taken the time to look for any info on this particular car and after the events of the past few days i won't even bother. I've seen a photo or two of the FIAT's that raced in the '04 Vanderbilt Cup but they don't seem to match. If you can find a photo of the William Wallace entry it closely resembles the 'Cyclone' but i'm not sure. From what little information about the FIAT cars in America i have gathered the name E.Rand Hollander rings a bell. He was an importer or dealer from N.Y. of these such cars. Cedrino was also New York FIAT agent after arriving from Italy. Whether there is a connection there i'm don't know. Maybe one of these two brought one of the Coppa Florio cars over to the U.S. I also have a feeling that David Bruce Brown drove this car at Daytona-Ormond Beach 24hr races in March 1908. Was he sharing it with Cedrino or was there another Cyclone? Apparently George Robertson drove a FIAT Cyclone one week after Cedrino's death against H.Kirpatrick in a Hotchkiss. Possibly the same car he drove at the Vanderbilt Cup. This i believe is the same car racing against De Palma in the former Cedrino? Cyclone at the Hamline dirt track. 11 Sept. 1909. Kurtis......I found this article in the NY Times dated Feb. 22 1909 which adds a little more to the story of the Cyclone. The complete article to follow with another in the future. Best,T-H
1906 Ormond Beach. DAYTONA. FL. 25th January- Corinthian Championship. 10miles - 2 laps-Heat 2 -1st-James L. Breese--Mercedes--10:37.0 @ 56mph 25th January- Corinthian Championship--final--2nd-James L. Breese--Mercedes--9:47.6 26th January-Corinthian Handicap. 10miles-James L. Breese-Mercedes--3rd--10:50.0 He was also the ride along for Walter Christie @ 1905 Vanderbilt Cup.
If Oldfield did indeed receive "a wood plaque in the mail for his efforts" in the 1905 AAA championship, I would be quite interested in seeing the documentation for this given the questions regarding the championship.
Kurtis... Thanks so much for you quick reply about Breese and setting things straight. I had my doubts about the car being a Damiler and shortly after I posted it twin6 sent me a photo of a Stanley in about the same spot which identified it as the Ormond Beach Garage which I thought it may be. I still would be interested in any info about his involvement with carburetors and the Breese car both made in the NYC area in the mid teens if anyone knows more. Thanks, T-H
At the risk of overload, here's one of Ralph DePalma in a Mercer, in 1913 I believe. Being new to the thread, I went through the entire thing (oh what a ride) and did not see it posted, so thought it would be a good one to share. That is... unless everyone is tired of DePalma and Mercer photos.
Cyrus Patschke, b 1888 (Pennsylvania) - d 06/05/1951 1909 - Won Brighton Beach 24 hour race with Ralph Mulford in a Lozier. 1910 - Won Brighton Beach 24 hour race with Al Poole in a Sterns. 1911 - Indycars (Marmon Wasp): 1 win (Indy 500) with R.Harroun. Never drove at Indy again. 1914 - Indycars: 3rd Sioux City Returned home to Lebanon, Pennsylvania to open a car dealership.
The Jalopy Journal
