Features VINTAGE SPRINT CAR PIC THREAD, 1965 and older only please.

Here's some more.....

 

About 45 years ago, as a dumb kid, I was assembling my first OT engine. Of course I didn't listen to my father about being carefull with the rings. After I broke one of the rings Lloyd Racing Ent. was the only local business that would help me get a new set of rings. I guess I sounded like a desperate kid on the phone when I ask if they could get rings for an English Ford. They could have easily blown me off like everyone else did. When I went to pick them up I was given a full shop tour, sure left a lasting impression. Thanks for the pics that brought that memory back.

 

VERY WELL PUT. Bob East would make it interesting. He's up to date.

All that would work great.. But, like the idiots running this country. COMMON SENSE DOES NOT APPLY!

 

GUYS! I might have missed this link being posted before but it's too good to take a chance. I don't know who the guy is. Didn't have time to look. Check it out!! Below are some examples of the 388 photo's on there. Plus ONE of the HART sprinter hanging it out at Winchester, we're restoring now that I didn't have!

http://picasaweb.google.com/jamesarthur22/AntiqueRacing#

 

a couple shots from our local library's photo archives....have these photos been circulated any...?

a link to some of the other shots from the race bowl...and some from indy

http://www.kentonlibrary.org/genpho...ge=1&searchTerms=racing&count=18&startIndex=1

http://www.kentonlibrary.org/genpho...77&startPage=1&Subject=&count=18&startIndex=1

 

-
Knoxville, Iowa nostalgia races about 2004. I think this car was wrecked a couple of years later.

Tic

 

Thanks for the pictures of the champ/silver crown cars. I pray that everything thats old gets new again.(champ cars)

 

I posted this over on the supermodified thread and it was suggested I place it over here for a better chance of getting an answer. Trying to see if anyone remembers seeing this car. It appears to have been raced as a supermodified in the early to mid 1970's in Michigan. Any help sure appreciated. You can email me at cars5752@suddenlink.net Many thanks.

 

That little lively debate is a good example of the dedicated and educated lovers of open wheel racing on this thread. KuDos to all

 

Josh, thanks for the heads up,just checked em out, some neat stuff.... Thanks Rich

 

Since were into nostalgia, how many remember Frank DelRoy and his speed shop. Dad was a friend of Frank's, you never knew who or what you would see there.

 

I just checked out Joshua Shaw cool Pics on page 490--The driver in Don Brown's dirt roadster--- what kinda hand signal is he trying to give that push truck??? )

 

Everyone take a look at the STP #40 that Rootie K posted on this page -- then replace that big T -- with a Nascar Chevy engine-- then put fearless Tony Smoke behind the wheel--------- how cool would that be.----- I would pay double to see that !!!!!!!!!!

 

Heres some more champ cars at THE GROVE....Rich

 

A final batch for tonite.....

 

I think the driver - and owner - of that vehicle is Greg Weld. And the signal is one that we all should recognize.

 

Josh,I hadn`t seen that link before-nice find!

You can get larger size photos on there by clicking full screen. Some of the photos of 1960s USAC sprints are OUTSTANDING!
http://picasaweb.google.com/jamesarthur22/AntiqueRacing#

An example:

http://picasaweb.google.com/jamesarthur22/AntiqueRacing#slideshow/5401140811046801906

Or perhaps:

http://picasaweb.google.com/jamesarthur22/AntiqueRacing#slideshow/5401140340980598962



Rabs-great dirt car stuff from WG.

 

The #25 track roadster is Red Amick from Muncie, Indiana via California. He totaled this car later at Winchester Speedway.
HG

 

Harold Leep tribute

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g9afVHHiUo

 

smp66-Thank You!!!!!!

Wynn`s 1-here is a great photo of our Caruso Sprinter-Ron Lux #39 in shoe polish.
The next year Jerry Karl installed a SBC and won three features in his URC Rookie Year. My dad was his mechanic.

It shows the radius rod detail. Notice the louvers in the hood in the exact amount and location as the Caruso Duece Midget.

Oh yeah,Jeff Barbour`s car is in the photo, too.

 

<tt><tt>At the risk of being slightly O/T I submit this editorial by my wise friend Gregg Kishline.
Perhaps he will later consent to share his story of Grandpa Flyod Kishlines's involvement
with the Grahman indy cars during the junk formula.
What Made the Roadsters Special?

Put a fork in champcar racing - it's over with. Its death spiral started about
1968. That's when the aerodynamic doodads began to appear on the bodywork of
the cars at Indy. ....which brings us to today. Modern champcar racing makes a
mockery of Parnelli, Mario, and AJ. And that's because any driver who can fog a
butter knife can turn a 200 mph average at the Speedway - which is an insult to
the world's best drivers from years past who fought for their lives four times
every lap.

Shame on the rule-makers. In the pursuit of speed, racers will 'innovate' -
they'll try anything. And that's why a strong sanctioning organization has to
hold racing in check. In a span of four decades, USAC/IRL has changed the top
tier of American motorsport into a completely different animal. It has lost all
linkage with American oval-track racing, it has become a shrine to technology,
and it has shriveled the driver's role, to say the least. Talk about mission
creep.

I have a skewed perspective of the Indianapolis 500. I remember Tony George as
a little kid on the sidelines, when Grandpa Hulman opened his house every year
for 4 or 5 weeks before the race. Craftsmen built cars. Upright cars - and
then roadsters - slid all the way through the corners, oversteering on tall,
narrow Firestones. The Speedway was a beehive, and surprises lurked all through
the garage area. The grandstands were filled to watch cars practice and qualify
before the race. It was the same at all the tracks where the champ cars ran.

It used to be that experiments in race car design showed up each May, and always
met by skeptics. When the innovations worked, the skeptics were usually won
over - sometimes reluctantly. Frank Kurtis offset the engine to create
roadsters. An era began. Characters emerged - think J. C. Agajanian.
Arguments resulted, and some of it got personal. Smokey Yunick ridiculed Rolla
Vollstedt's new rear engine car in 1964, saying officials should grease the
first turn concrete, as it would push up to the wall, at speed. Turned out
Smokey was wrong. Then Smokey joined the club. Apparently, he had a prophesy
of the modern rear-engined super-modified, but he hung the driver out to the
left - instead of the engine. Wow, talk about a 180.

As if by magic, Andy Granatelli revealed his first turbine car and shocked
racing. There were lots more surprises - Novis, magnesium Shrikes, Mickey
Thompson's hotrod approach to highspeed oval racing, Colin Chapman's monocoque
cars, and then Ford poured their money into a new DOHC engine to challenge
Meyer-Drake for supremacy. It was a wonderful, homegrown era of craftsmen and
bold drivers - where the price for being too bold was the wall.

All that variety and difference of opinion made Indianapolis something to look
forward to. It made for a month-long motorsport adventure for the car-builders,
the drivers, the mechanics, the fans, and the media. The famous expression
'...the greatest spectacle in racing' was just an honest description of events.
Daytona was for stock cars. Indianapolis was for race cars. USAC didn't sell
its personalities (the way NASCAR does now), but they sure had a spectacle in
May.

Today, there is a vacuum where champcar racing used to be. It has ceased to
exist. In its place, we have been handed the IRL grand prix spec-cars which
masquerade as a championship series. The Associated Press quoted Speedway
spokesman Ron Green, saying, "...we're in the fifth or sixth year of this
formula - Dallara chassis, Firestone tires, and Honda engines - so the teams are
very, very familiar with this combination."

Key word: 'formula'. What an indictment - six years of spec racing at the
championship level (and at the Indianapolis 500) is not something to be proud
of.

Since the zero-downforce era ended, forty years have elapsed. By the rules,
it's been rear-engined down-force cars since then. Enough. It's time for the
sport and the cars to evolve - reasons forthcoming.

Admittedly, I'm stuck with this filter of personal history. I have spent quite
some time trying to figure out why the champ dirt cars, roadsters, and the early
rear-engined cars were so entertaining to watch. What made it different than
watching 33 Dallara-Hondas, in competition today? Apparently, I am not alone
- the stands are not as occupied as they were decades back.

These days, I have raised my kids and retired. I putz, restore, and build stuff
because it's enjoyable and seems worthwhile. Now, I take some time to attend
gatherings of people who populated that era - as well as some younger folk - who
have a fondness for old race cars on open trailers. I have met some of my old
warrior-heroes and shared stories with them.

Sometimes that means showing up at vintage meets, and sometimes it's just
wandering through the restoration shops in Indianapolis. Without name-dropping,
I have chatted with some of the surviving Indianpolis greats - drivers,
builders, stooges - and befriended some, in the process. They're just plain
folk who did it for the love of the sport and made a large mark over on 16th
Street. They will graciously spend time with like-minded curious souls like
myself. It is humbling, and I am so fortunate.

The consensus of this crowd seems to be that decades ago, things went south at
Indianapolis for a laundry list of reasons. And in the process, the management
of the sanctioning bodies lost sight of racing's values, in pursuit of income.

It seems everyone understands a balance sheet. However, neither Tony George,
nor the IMS Board (meaning the Hulman family), nor the France descendants appear
to understand the values that spawned traditional oval track racing. We should
credit Tony George - he has tried to preserve the Speedway by adding
improvements and events. However, while Grandpa Tony Hulman likewise tried to
make a buck with the Speedway, he also understood traditional racing values.

Back in the early 1960's, John Kennedy defended his ambitious agenda for
America, which included landing a man on the moon. He said, "We do these
things not because they are easy but because they are hard - because they are a
measure of the best that we can do." Historically, that's what racing is about
- the racing community challenging themselves and each other with their best
effort.

Racing is this simple: Men build race cars - traditionally, on less than a NASA
budget. They apply their craftsmanship and innovation. Then they gather, and
the drivers show their abilities. The better car and driver usually prevail -
winner takes the most marbles. With great emotional investment, spectators
watch this competition, just as they did 2000 years ago in Rome's Circus
Maximus. Incidentally, the Circus Maximus is still a great -looking oval track.


The powers that manage racing have lost this vision. It has become a pursuit of
money, abandoning individual craftsmanship and innovation in the process. Well,
the trophy's unchanged. The result is a field of 33 identical chassis all
powered by the same leased engine. Champ racing in America has become an
expensive spec series that represents the best of European Formula 1 chassis
engineering coupled with Japan's decades of building motorcycle engines. And we
won't even mention the 20 drivers in last year's race who needed a passport so
they could reach Indianapolis and compete. This is America's best? This is the
measure of the best that we can do? Hence, the stands are emptying.

NASCAR has created a money machine out of advertising, using their race cars.
Driver interviews have become commercials. Same for the IRL. The machine makes
more money by marketing personalities. So, the focus leans toward the drivers
and away from the identical cars. If racing turtles made money, they'd race
turtles. The sanctioning bodies have things back-asswards. Champ racing has
slipped in a big way.

The IRL has become the CART group that it went to war with. Let the lost souls
be - let them race. They are a different breed. To me, watching the super-glued
IRL cars play follow-the-leader is dull. American Grand Prix racing is entitled
to its followers, but as Yogi Berra once said, 'Include me out'.

The dominos begin to tip. Fewer fans buy fewer tickets, less gate receipts
result, broadcast income gets more important, costs exceed sales, and
'sanctioning fees' are choking the horse. Tracks are threatened with closure.
That's not just speculation. The Milwaukee Mile is currently in jeopardy, with
too many people cutting up a limited pie. Racing in America will not be served
if the oldest operating track in the US turns into condos.

I have undertaken an informal poll when I meet retired racers. Three takeaways:
1) No one thinks that things at the Speedway will change anytime soon. 2) The
decline in Champcar racing began when it became infected with the pursut of
corporate money. And finally, 3) the most interesting conclusion of all. This
one is amazing because it's unanimous - every single participant in this curious
poll says the same thing.

Here's the question: Given a magic wand, would you do away with downforce in
the '500'? Some think a while, others respond immediately. But every
interviewee facing that question has said that the Indianapolis 500 would be a
better race if downforce were either significantly reduced or eliminated
altogether. And then comes the inevitable comment about how it would force a
return of driving skill to champ cars.

The drivers I've surveyed are all 60-80 years old now. One is 90+. To a man,
they feel the role of the driver has been diminished by technology.
Technically, the physics of aerodynamic downforce has overcome the available
engine torque. In plain English, as A.J. Foyt was overheard at Milwaukee, "I
never thought I'd see the day when you could flatfoot the Speedway."

Currently, qualifying at Indianapolis requires a driver run at 100% throttle for
four laps. Intuitively, you would expect a racecar driver to lift once in a
while. Except for yellow flags and 'dirty air' conditions, the throttle
function has been removed from driving - it might as well be an on-off switch.

One could argue that the current Indianapolis car is aimed, not driven. "I want
to grow up and be a race car aimer," just doesn't sound right. [In fact, the
race could now be run as a video game with servos in the cars and drivers
sitting at monitors in the garage area. While this may be the ultimate safety
improvement, it hardly seems as entertaining as watching racing's great drivers
try to throttle a car through the corners - as they did until the roadster era
ended.]

And, one could argue that the era of the roadsters and early rear-engined cars
was the last real measure of driving skill, when lifting for the corners was
required for survival. Look at the photos. About 1967, little aero tabs and
wings started showing up on Indy cars. The officials caved to the owners and
said, "Sure, why not?" Then Jim Hall had his 'eureka' moment, and the end
result is a car that now weighs 6000# entering each corner at the Speedway.

Today's champcar racing is the equivalent of watching barnstormers, ...or
retired drivers compete in a 'Masters' race. More to the point, it's like
watching an open-wheel version of the IROC series, which also featured identical
racecars, except that the modern cars are no test of driving skill. These
racers will not be converted, and it is useless to try. Maybe Roger Penske's
midset had too much influence on champcar racing.

The cars of the 50's and 60's had zero downforce, and they were affordable by
an individual entrant, ... but to run them again would only be to re-play
history. [That said, I would pay dearly to see 33 wing-free supermods line up
on the main straight, next May.]

These are all interesting exercises and even mildly entertaining, but they are
not a measure of the best we can do - the measure taken by the 'old'
Indianapolis.

The operating credo of the IRL seems to be, "This here is a spec club, and we
are not interested in builders competing with each other." Thus does the tail
wag the dog.

In the end, it dawns on me that I am watching the wrong race. Change the
channel. The future is racing has not been written. It will be what
sanctioning groups, racers, and race-fans make it. Unfortunately, wealth also
has a vote (arguably beginning in the early 1960's, with Ford's 4-cam
initative). It has become a very rich man's sport.

It is apparent that new championship racing rules are in order - rules to race
by, not the current rules by which one purchases a starting position. Fact is,
running the same cars (rear engine, downforced) year after year for 40 years has
been one long re-play, and it's getting old.

Racecar evolution has brought improvements. Driver protection has never been so
good - and that's good for racing. [Sidebar: While downtube midgets and
sprintcars are strong and safe, they just look wrong. They stopped looking like
race cars and started looking like bridges 30 years ago. Maybe, I should be
watching non-wing super-mods race. But there are none in the Mississippi River
Valley, where I live. And midgets are so overpowered that they have in fact
become short-wheelbase sprintcars - but that's an entirely separate discussion.]


Motorsport is diluted with too many classes of ugly cars as it is. If we enter
this fantasy world where we lose downforce, build cars, and let drivers drive
again, then more changes logically follow. That said, here are a few
not-so-humble suggestions:

1) We need one more class of racecars, hopefully to restore open-wheel champ
car racing.

2) First off, start with a new sheet of paper. Walk away from the befuddled
IRL. Gather some dedicated racers and sportsman who embrace affordability and
the values of championship racing, and are willing to create a new sanctioning
organization. Include a competition committee with teeth, to ensure safety and
raceworthy construction. A little computer-savvy business expertise would
help.

3) Racing should be inclusive. Today it is for the wealthy elite - new
participants and new ideas are excluded. The expense of racing has always
discriminated against the modestly-funded racer, but never more than now. The
influence of money on racing will never be eliminated, but it can be reduced.
More often than not, technology adds cost without improving the race that the
fan watches. Re-write a set of competition rules that don't favor money.
Fifty or a hundred grand ought to get you into a competitive champ car.
Conversely, twenty million dollars shouldn't buy a face on the Speedway's
Borg-Warner trophy. Reduce the impact of unlimited dollars on racing, and you
will renew the sport.

An example: Allow chassis to be built by the individual. Champ racing needs
individual builders who design and construct cars, in their own shops - to
contain costs and interest fans. It's cost-effective, it provides variety, and
it can be done safely. For chassis, use 4130 tubing or tempered aluminum or
composites, but establish a sufficient minimum weight that discourages
lightweight exotics. Require energy-absorbing designs and driver protection.
Building materials should be readily available and affordable. There should be
no competitive advantage in using exotic, expensive materials such as
carbon-fiber, laminate sandwiches, or 'unobtainium'. Construction guidelines
shouldn't be hard to develop, with each one poured through the filter of cost.
Safety note: Despite the boredom, the last 40 years have left us a wonderful
safety legacy. The advancements in Champcar safety should all be retained. It
bears repeating that the modern IRL
cockpit is a very safe place to store fuel and to experience a wreck.
Accordingly, 4) Give a carbon-fiber cockpit 'pod' to each builder and turn them
loose.

Another example (to reduce the impact of money and another reason to do away
with downforce): Although wind-tunnel testing improves performance at the
track by increasing downforce, it is expensive. If the rules remove any benefit
to wind-tunnel testing, then testing goes away - and it becomes cheaper to field
a competitive car. Remove the 'edge' that comes with windtunnel testing by
removing the result of that testing. Remove today's 4500 lbs of downforce,
and drivers will lift at the each corner. Zero-downforce cars will reduce the
cost of racing, bring down speeds, and restore the role of the driver. The
result is better and cheaper racing, by anyone's yardstick.

Yet another example: Spec engines ...yuk. But they may be necessary at the
outset, as a key to affordability. If so, then use cheap dependable engines,
and inspect them or seal them to keep everybody honest. Maybe limit the amount
of fuel for the race. Unlimited engine development is very costly. Dependable
four-valve, DOHC engines are available off the showroom floor. Today, a new
midget engine will set you back $35,000 - another $10K for an IRL Honda motor.
You can build a Northstar or a good small-block sprint motor for $10K. No
titanium. Wanna see 100 entries at Indianapolis again?

5) Sad to say, the driving skills learned in midgets and sprint cars no longer
apply at Indianapolis. It bears repeating: it should be necessary to lift at
Turn One. As it was in the distant past, champcars need rules that will advance
America's best open-wheel drivers to a crown jewel event - not push them to the
back of the bus, where they watch the '500' on TV.

Here's what my winning Powerball ticket would do. Throw some money - like $50K
or $100K - at half a dozen respected car builders. Let imagination prevail.
Tell them to build the car they'd like to see in next year's 500, and see what
they come up with. Test those cars on long and short racetracks, and decide
what works and what doesn't. Use the results to fine-tune a new rulebook. Then
- assuming the Speedway Corporation will loosen their deathgrip - rent some
racetracks and present a series.

6) Cheap engines should be competitive. If the spec engine idea is vetoed,
open up the engine options by including time in the rules. Engine performance
cannot be measured by displacement alone. When an engine is running at
race-speed, how many cubic inches of air are displaced PER MINUTE? For each
lap, a high-winding engine will pump more burned gases (and make more
horsepower) than a low-rpm engine - much as we measure the peformance of air
compressors, in cubic feet per minute. Adjust cubic-inch displacement to
reflect the time factor. This applies to any air-breathing engine, including
tubines.

7) On that subject: As radical as turbines were viewed when they arrived at the
500 - and if racing can still be considered a proving ground - then allow
alternative engines or power sources. And let the experimenters and innovators
generate new interest each season. A schoolbus-pushrod-Chevy V8 once ran
competitively against the turbo-Offys. How about a powerplant that runs on
sunlight? Or one that burns hydrogen? Maybe there's a way to energize a
racecar without burning anything. What rules would would you enact to make an
electric racecar competitive? And who said 'no' to turbines or steam? Variety
is good for the show - watching identical spec cars circle around is not - nor
has it held down costs.

8) The rules drive the event. Let us ask, 'What drives the rules?' If an
unfair advantage pops up, let a strong competition committee address equity
issues with a sense of fairness and cost. But the goals should be to keep the
racer in the fold, encourage variety, and discourage obscene spending.

9) Put a pile of money on the table, and let 'em race for it. Stand back and
let America do what it does best. Broadcast rights and ticket sales ought to
generate enough for track rental and a fat purse. (The math: selling $25
tickets to 200,000 Indy fans puts $5 million in the pot. Then add TV revenue -
what are broadcast rights worth?) Allowing mega-dollars from sponsors to
contaminate the process only duplicates what we have now - which isn't working.


The Indianapolis 500 used to be about superior performance, on every level.
Now, it's about buying the best and selling the race. Let the IRL and Bernie
Ecclestone keep their addiction to the marketing money of corportate sponsors,
presenting their parades of cookie-cutter, ground-sucking vacuum cleaners
pressed to the asphalt. Money should not trump talent in America, nor should it
buy a ride at the Speedway. But sadly it does. God bless the entire Kinser
clan.

Champ car racing needs to follow its trusty old compass. It needs a strong
sanctioning organization that thinks critically about increasing participation
and less about filling the pockets of those on the sidelines (the same applies
to national politics, actually). It needs rules that favor the whole sport, and
that includes the ticket-buying fans.

Actually, the fans ARE voting. TV is no substitute for a seat in the
grandstands - which appear all too vacant lately. It isn't marketing that puts
fans in the seats. It's cars and drivers dancing with adhesion limits. Until
1968 champ cars were exciting to watch race - modern IRL cars are not. The
Indianapolis 500 should be the standard by which all racing is measured. One or
two bold decisions, and fans will pay to watch qualifying again.

An open inquiry to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Board (meaning the Hulman
family): We remember the goals you had in mind when you banged heads with CART
and created the IRL. Please tell us about NASCAR's rental deal - the one that
opens the Speedway to the COT 'stock' cars for that long weekend in July. Then,
give us a couple of years to pass the hat across America (we'll need rent money
and time to build a sanctioning group as well as some first-generation cars).
Finally, rent the joint to us for a week in early September.

We'll have an actual champcar race again - a fitting celebration of Labor Day
and a tribute to American initiative. Maybe put it on TV. Game on. America's
best sprintcar and supermod drivers will lead a field of new, non-wing,
open-wheel champ cars. They'll all have to lift for the corners, so lap speeds
will only be 150 or 160 mph. And we'll all learn something.

It'll be fun to watch, and the IMS Board won't have to lift a finger. Most
important, we'll bring a lot of oval track racers back to Indianapolis, because
that's where they belong. That alone ought be enough to make Sid Collins
smile.




</tt></tt></pre>

 

Wow! That's a long and interesting read.

To lighten the mood, here's some old Aussie dirt trackers.

 

A couple more.

 

I agree, it is a long article.

Some of the author's comments and nearly all of his ideas don't make any sense.

Hypocritical to say the least.

 

I dunno... I understand that it's all about progress and better technology and that things can't stay the same, but at the end of the day when everyone ends up building pretty much the same car, what's the point?

I reckon it would be great to see some differentiation amongst the cars, not just at Indy, but all over the world.

We have a two-make series over here in Australia (V8 Supercars) and the cars are so similar that they might as well just build the same car and change the badge on the front... hang on, I think that's already been done!

Top Fuel cars are all identical, Funny cars are a joke (look more like fighter planes with their wings chopped off) and most other long running series have 'evolved' into a situation where the only thing different about the cars is the placement of the sponsors' stickers.

 

Would I Love to see Indy return to front engine roadsters with narrow tires and no wings or ground effects of any kind allowed? Yes.

Would I rather see drivers like AJ Foyt and Parnelli Jones or Milka Dunno?

I`ll take AJ Foyt and Parnelli if I had a choice.

Will it ever happen? Not a snowball`s chance in hell.....

 

Gearguy-- you're my hero---I couldn't have wrote all that--- but I agree -- I went to 14 straight Indy 500 time trails and races, starting in 1965. Then stopped ---I still watch it on TV or hear it on the radio. But sure don't feel the need to go back. If they ran a Sept FE Super race -you couldn't get all the people in that wanted to. This my come out wrong --but people don't care about the current drivers .They want to watch that midget/sprint/super guy hit the big time. Look at all the attention Roger Rager got with his SBC school bus engine.

 

Wow! I need to get to know this guys engine and chassis builder!

[Fifty or a hundred grand ought to get you into a competitive champ car.]


[You can build a Northstar or a good small-block sprint motor for $10K]

 

Competitive 410 sprint car engines run $40,000 plus.

Even the limited 358 sprint car engines around here are over $30,000....

 

Your numbers are a bit more realistic. But at least they havent screwed up our wingless sprinters. The four bar space frames heve been around for 50 years with only minor changes in bar heights and lighter components. The core design is still the same. Hopefully they learned a lesson by what they did to silver crown and wont touch it.