There may not be any way to answer this without taking it to a transmission shop, but I would like to pull the 2 speed auto trans out of my '64 Comet and replace it with a C-4 from a '67 Mustang. Is there anything I could do at home to figure out if it's likely to be good before I put it in the car? Aside from dark fluid, burnt smells, and trash in the pan, what else can I check to give me an idea of it's condition? It's been stored inside for at least the last 4 or 5 years and the fluid that leaked out of the rear when I was taking it off of the truck looked clean and red. Anyone got any advice? Thanks.
1. Make sure it fits. 2 speed would be 5 bolt, 67 mustang would be 6 bolt bellhousing 2. Completely reseal it...and while you have it all apart, replace any worn parts.
There are 5 bolt bell housing out there for your swap but they are not so common to find these days it may take a bit of detcetive work. My buddy has just done the same swap about 3 months ago and is very happy with it.
What squirrel said is good advise. I have the same combo in my '62 Futura, and put many miles on it, but did the switch probably 18 years ago. My memory tells me the guys asking about bellhousings are right, you are going to have problems. If I remember correctly, you need a 1965 only bellhousing for that trans to work behind your current engine. Might see what kind of shape the engine from the '67 is in before you get too far into this deal.
I've been putting this off for my 64 Comet, what motor do you have, 200? Doesn't the driveshaft need to be reduced by an inch or two also?
Not sure just yet as I just installed a 4 lug 8" rear out of a Maverick - so that changes up the dimensions (slightly) along with the size of universals that I need to use. The engine I have is a '64 200 as best I can tell from reading the casting numbers and looking at the number of freeze plug holes. I've read that the 200 block can be tapped and drilled to add the additional needed bolt hole for the bellhousing. Not sure if this is true or not. The 200 in the car is in good condition vs. the incomplete 200 that the trans came off of. The car currently has a suppossedly rebuilt 2 speed auto in it, but it makes a whining noise when the car is stopped and idling. A friend of mine says this is normal, but it sounds like a bad pump or something. I need to have a driveshaft made to connect the 2 speed (1100 series U joints) to the Maverick rear (1300 series U joints) so I figured I'd just stick the C-4 in and make one driveshaft rather than one now and one later. Anyone got any other thoughts?
Those 2 speeds were whiners when they were new. If that's all the problem, I wouldn't get too excited about chucking it. Be advised that the 3-speed takes more HP to run it, any performance gain you might expect from the swap will be minimal with a 200.
I was mainly looking for a third gear as the engine seems like it spins more rpms than I would expect it to at cruising speed. Although, it could have been the rear end gears. I've read that sometimes the 7.25 rears were geared really low for in town driving I guess. I just replaced the rear with one that has gears somewhere in the 2.93 - 3.00 range. Interestingly enough I checked the numbers on my donor engine C5DE 6015-H and believe it's out of a '65 Falcon rather than a '67 Mustang like I was told. It had a C-4 bolted to it with what appears to be a 5 bolt? bellhousing as I could only find 4 places on the rear of the engine block where it was attached. It looks like I may have the bellhousing I need to do the swap. I was told that the Ford/Cruise-O-Matic trans was rebuilt when I bought the car and it looks clean enough to fit the part, but there is transmission fluid all over the bottom of the pan and leaking everywhere on the ground. Maybe a pan gasket? Makes me wonder what the rebuild was like. I'm still debating having a driveshaft made to fit the maybe rebuilt 2speed trans with Maverick rearend or go ahead and install the C-4 which I have no history on and have a driveshaft made to fit this combo. Money is tight so I don't want to open an expensive can of worms if I don't have to.
I don't have the whining, but I have the same problem with high rpm's, the 200 works too hard to sustain 65+mph. You can feel it's there, just needs the next gear. Everyone will tell you c4's for our setups grow on trees, I do see them on c-list from time to time (in Tampa Bay). So it might be a safe move to get the driveshaft set up for a c-4. My plan is to investigate at fordsix.com for more specific advice on compatible bellhousings and such, sorry I can't be of any help in that regard.
If money is tight use the C4 better investment and will use less gas with 3 gears verus 2 gears and will feel nicer to drive any where. The C4 wont help your top end speed that is to do with your wheel/tire size and your rear end gear ratio.
This is true, you could drop in a four speed manual, and it wouldn't change your top speed, 1:1 is still 1:1. You'll need an overdrive to change engine RPM's at cruising speed, or what fiftyV8 said, taller tires, or taller gears.
Years ago my Dad left me his car when he p***ed away and I let it sit a number of years before deciding to use it again with mixed feelings. The C4 in it started to slip which it didn't previously. My rebuilder who I trust said the clutches near the top side dried out from not sitting in fluid and started to fall apart when I went to use it. I don't know how long it takes for this to happen but something to think about. Just another reason to start & move cars every so often when not being used on the road.
I imagine someone on here has rebuilt a C-4 trans at some point. How hard is it to do if you've never done a trans rebuild? I can't afford to pay someone $1500.00 or so to rebuild it.
Are all C-4s the same internally and externally. Could I use a C-4 from a V-8 car and just swap the bellhousing? Thanks.
That's where things become super complicated! Two reasons why I'm so fuzzy on details on my deal - I did this 18 years ago or so, and, about a year later I "adapted" a later C/4 trans to my bell housing, which I know to be a '65. It should have been a slam dunk kinda' deal, but it turned out to be far from it. Actually putting the early bell and later trans together was not a big deal, nor was rebuilding the trans, but making the early converter work with the later trans was tough. I ended up having a input shaft made from half of the early and half of the late. I dug and looked and looked, but there was no factory part that would make the converter I needed work with the trans from a '72 Maverick 6 cyl application. I'll explain in a bit.
Yeah,sorry about that. But Ford kinda'"did it to us"on the small sixes. They just couldn't make up their minds about bell housing sizes! The up shot is this, If that trans is a '65, It will fit behind your six if it is a 144, 170, or early 200. I would make sure that I went through and replaced all external seals, especially the torque converter seal, otherwise it WILL leak like a sieve. If the trans is a '67, you might just look for a '66 or later 200, and just replace the whole thing. At least around here, '70s and '80s 200 sixes are as common as flees on a dog. The 250 is it's own animal and uses the same bell housing as a 302 small block, and presents some other difficulties in installation as well, so leave those alone for now. With the rear end swap you are doing, you should end up with a bit more favorable rear gear (hopefully about a 3.00), which is what it sounds like you were trying to accomplish all along. With the two swaps together you will end up with much improved gear spacing and allot more comfortable freeway manners that will be worth the effort.
There is some confusion and mis information here. ALL 144, 170, and 200 sixes with automatic,up to 1978 (some say 1980) use the high mount starter and will interchange. From 66 on there were 2 different bolt patterns on the 200" but that was for manual trans cars to utilize a larger clutch then the earlier versions. The low mount starters use a different bolt pattern and don't interchange. These are what many call the 6 bolt that only use 4 pattern, essentially a V8 pattern and use of only 4 of the bolts V8's were a whole different ball game with the 5 bolt/6 bolt change in early '65
So to summarize... It looks like I can bolt my '65 C-4 onto my '64 engine and I should definitely rebuild the trans before installing it. Now the question is should I try to rebuild it myself (never done one before) or farm it out to someone (if I can afford it.) Thanks for everyone's imput so far!
Always cheaper if you can do it yourself depending on your skill level and having the tools.It always helps if you have a buddy or someone who can guide you through it and help along the way,but if you are missing one or the other bite the bullett and pay someone to do it for you.Just make sure it is a place that has a good track record and hopefully stands by thier work.Im in the sameboat as you so I will be letting someone else rebuild my c4.Good luck and let us know how it turns out. Muncie
Thanks Don, I knew if I dropped the ball one of you guys would pick it up. That's why I kept prefacing my posts with "my info is a bit fuzzy". Been a long time since I did this stuff with Falcon knowledge on a daily basis. As far as rebuilding your C/4 yourself, that was my first shot at rebuilding an automatic trans. I bought a kit from a local supplier and dug up a copy of a ford trans manual, and went to town. I did end up having to build a couple of quick "specialty tools", (compressor of some sort), but it wasn't hard to do, and I learned a new skill doing it.
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