I've never seen a MILLER 8 apart with the cam boxes attached, reminds me of the days in the Bugatti shop. Two guys compressing the rings on the two up pistons while someone controlled the engine hoist. Never a fun time.
1911 EMF, don't know the history behind this car, but it is fairly close to the car's that ran in the Savannah Grand Prize
Great photos of the E-M-F. Beautiful car. Thanks FB. More info of the company here.... www.emfauto.org/index.php 1911 Tiedeman Trophy. -- E-M-F. finished 1-2-3. #33 - Jack Tower. #35 - Frank Witt. #34 - Robert Evans.
It has been a bit frustrating trying to pinpoint the When and the Why of the rules the Chicago Motor Club decided to use for the 1907 Algonquin Hill Climb. There is an oblique reference in the nature of the rules in an advertisement for the Columbia which won the Class 3 category, Piston Area 50 and under 65. It states that the rules used were those "of the Automobile Club of Great Britain.... A car was taxed on its capacity, cylinder dimensions, weight, etc.,...." However, an article in the 22 August 1907 issue of The Automobile, "Importers' Salon Suggests Rules for Contests," might be pointing those interested in the direction of the aforementioned A.L.M.A. as well as the A.M.C.M.A. and the A.C.A., given that the Trades and Contests Committee of the Importers' Automobile Salon forwarded a report to the organizations mentioned which recommended that classes be determined by horsepower rather than engine displacement or price, the two means then in use. There were a number of ideas floating around as to how to classify the machines, the Chicago Motor Club apparently deciding to try using piston area as the means to do so. There was some discussion about doing so again for the 1909 event, but it was apparently dropped at some point early on. I have gaps in my data, so I am only offering a suggestion as to why the CMC acted as it did. I am still looking for something more concrete on this. I would also suggest that the timing of the Ostend meeting, held on,15 July, may not fit the timeline very well since the rules of the hill climb had to be submitted to the sanctioning body some weeks prior to the original date of the climb, 1 August. However, that is, once more, just supposition.
I have thought the same thing and when you really think about it there are not that many. As you mention they mostly had very long hard life's and most ended up in a bad way. I have noticed there are more that have survived from post WWI, before that you there are very few, you could probably count them on one hand. It would be interesting to compile a list, the big problem is the criteria of what is a real car. Where do you draw the line with recreations and cars that were restored from not much more than a radiator cap? I understand recreations and think they are fine if people are honest about them, but I have a hard time with what happens with them down the road. With time and change of ownership and money being involved they can become the "real thing" and legitimate down the road when they are in fact not.
If you want to go down this road be prepared for some strong opinions and a certain level of acrimony to say the least. There are few early racecars that were put away in a sealed box and then pulled out and washed and waxed. Many of the cars we are now seeing today were created, recreated, restored, reconstructed (feel free to choose your own term) from a bit of this and a bit of that. The stories of their provenance has been polished and embellished and practiced to the point where some of the story tellers believe their own stories now. There are few records which say this 1st place car or 4th place car had engine # so and so. I am sure it can be claimed that the 1911 winning Marmon is the real deal but as soon as I say that someone will come along and say that how do we know for sure that is the winning car. With the scramble at Indy with the big wreck and the score keepers at the race running around during the race trying to save their skin, how are we sure it was not Mulford that won the race? That being said there are some cars out there that may very well have some pretty decent proof but I am not so sure it is bullet proof. Everyone wants the winner but then so did the guys racing back in the day. They did not treat the cars like the Daytona 500 winner and put it in a museum. The racers wanted that car and went out and raced it till it was a pretty tired old girl. Many were discarded, sad but true. Many of the racecars that are out there today are claimed to be "restored" and then I hear guys knock another racer that comes along and say it is nothing more than a recreation. If all of the owners (including museums) of the early racecars had to undergo a very strict scrutiny on their provenance there may be a few guys hemmin and hawwin on their "facts". I have a real admiration for honesty such as what Bill Castle is doing with his Baby Chevrolet. He has not done the restoration (once again pick your term) behind a cloak of secrecy as have most. Same thing for Bill Evans with the big Benz. These guys have gone to great lengths to put these cars back into a form that they can be appreciated once again. All that being said, I can understand what some of the guys are going through. I have spent years researching early Packard racing and with my 299 racing engine I too have to rely on a bit of guesswork to be mixed in with some facts. I believe it to be DePalma's engine he ran at Indy in 1919 but there is simply no informational source I can go to and find the definitive answer. I am afraid that such is the case with many of the early racercars, although the moment I say that, it would most assuredly create acrimony amongst the owners. Good luck with your quest-Jim
More interesting race cars. Chitty Chitty, Marmon Wasp and a 1912 28 liter Fiat. Jerry <input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"><input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
That is not really true, in fact it is a popular error: The 1928 Marmon front-drives were re-badged 1927 Coopers, with Cooper chassis, engine and running gear. No Miller parts were used in the construction, even though the design was a close copy of the front-drive Miller, but with several distinctive features. Most telling from a visual standpoint, the engines had right-hand exhausts (or, to be more precise, left-hand exhausts with the engines turned back to front) and different superchargers, the bodywork was completely different, the front-drive unit lacked the oil filler and was framed by larger brake drums (apart from it having only two instead of three forward speeds), and a host of other, less obvious differences. In short, they were not Millers, neither "badge-engineered" nor modified.
Quote: Originally Posted by The37Kid Thanks David! That is the oldest INDY car I've ever riden in, I once sat in the 4th place finisher from the 1911 race. This leads to a question I've always asked, how many Pre 1942 INDY cars are there? Some had a long run up to 12 years and they changed form a lot. I should start some sort of organized list, restored cars, rolling chassis or just engines. I wonder if Ryan would allow a list to start in another thread? Quote: Jim Dillon All that being said, I can understand what some of the guys are going through. I have spent years researching early Packard racing and with my 299 racing engine I too have to rely on a bit of guesswork to be mixed in with some facts. I believe it to be DePalma's engine he ran at Indy in 1919 but there is simply no informational source I can go to and find the definitive answer. I am afraid that such is the case with many of the early racercars, although the moment I say that, it would most assuredly create acrimony amongst the owners. Good luck with your quest-Jim Jim you are right and I would not go there as it is a task that is impossible because of what I mentioned. Bob brought it up it and I was just adding my two cents. Don't get me wrong I have no problems with recreations or restorations from components of a car. I have done it myself and for other people and I feel that the people that do it should be recognized for it and all the very hard work. They make huge investment in time and resources so that we all can see what one was like. If people are honest about it is just fine. The problem is down the road with time and changes in ownership cars can sometimes become legitimate when they are not.
Interesting pictures! Am I right in thinking they show George Weaver and the original Miller 'FD' (back in monoposto form) in 1947?
[QUOTEThe problem is down the road with time and changes in ownership cars can sometimes become legitimate when they are not.[/QUOTE] Very true David but it very well may be the case that early lets say pre WWI racecars whose documented provenance as an original or restored (in its simplest or true form) may be able to be counted on one hands with enough fingers left over to smoke a cigar.-Jim
Not directed at you, but good reading for all as to what the legal definations really are. It is a long slog, but very worth it when describing the provenance of a car/ race car. The pertains to the history of the Bentley known as "Old Number One" and how to classify what it is. Lots of great history in there. http://www.gomog.com/articles/no1judgement.html (I know this is a repost, but it dissapeared somewhere in the past 90 odd pages)
Very true David but it very well may be the case that early lets say pre WWI racecars whose documented provenance as an original or restored (in its simplest or true form) may be able to be counted on one hands with enough fingers left over to smoke a cigar.-Jim[/QUOTE] How right you are Jim and I got a chuckle out the description of being able smoke with the fingers left over......... my Quote from before is below; I have noticed there are more that have survived from post WWI, before that there are very few, you could probably count them on one hand.
How right you are Jim and I got a chuckle out the description of being able smoke with the fingers left over......... my Quote from before is below; I have noticed there are more that have survived from post WWI, before that there are very few, you could probably count them on one hand.[/QUOTE] In conversations with my father and grandfather, thier observations were that "many" pre-ww1 race cars were converted into touring cars in the 50's and 60's and thier pedigree lost for ever. A good example would be the ex-ER. Bourne Pope Hartford known as "Old Yellar", it showed up in the shop as a race car and was converted into a long chassis touring. Another example is the '09 (with out checking) ITALA GP car, that runs around england with a 4 place touring body and mudguards.
Two that come to mind immediately to me are of course the Marmon Wasp and the National of Joe Dawson. I have photos of them being displayed at the 1914 Indy 500 and I have a photo the the National being run on a demo at Indy in the 1930s. I don`t think either of them were changed around,although they have been refreshed. I`d be interested in learning more about some of IMS earlier cars in the collection,such as the French Machines.Are they the original machines? How about the #42 Duesy? I would imagine the 1905 Premier is the original?
Buildy I agree on the Marmon Wasp although you may have to show me some documentation on the National. That car was completely disassembled and the engine and gas tank were separated from the chassis to run a machine in an automotive plant shortly after its short racing career. It was a widely published picture. I have a copy somewhere although I am sure IMS has a very good story on the car. Not saying it is not the car but I am not sure it is ironclad-Jim
This is a perfect case of what happened quite often in Europe as it allowed the maker to recoup some of his investment, this was posted yesterday. I have read of other converted racers that the maker was able to sell in this way. Many times for much more than it was worth, as to the purchaser it was the ultimate form of bragging rights to have so and so's race car.......
sorry, it is an '08 ITALA: "George Daniels brought the 1908 Grand Prix Itala back to Prescott 2006 for the first time in a long time. He is seen here in the driving seat waiting to take part in the parade. Johnty Williamson the previous owner of the car is stood next to George. This car was one of 3 that Itala entered in the 1908 GP and is surely one of worlds most significant competition cars. She has a 12.5lt. 4 cylinder that enables her to reach 100mph and she does the standing 1/4 mile in the same time as a VW Golf GTI. The 4 seater body was fitted many years ago replacing the 2 seater racing body of 1908."
Jim, There were 3 or 4 Nationals at Indy in 1912,so I guess it is possible that parts from one of them could represent the Dawson Machine. I really don`t have the knowledge to say,of course how it went. If they did switch things around,they must`ve done it before 1914.
C.R. Ekholm Of Rockford Ill. was very proud of the truck he built out of a Matheson racing car (which car is not mentioned). He had the photo taken and sent it to the factory. He mentioned that it carrys loads better than most 2 or so ton trucks and that it only cost him about $375 to convert it. Back then it was the ultimate form of recycling as it was just an old race car. If it was not and still existed today it would a real treasure. There were two of these 1905 cars built and one is in the second photo. They were a 5"x 6" fours and this one was driven by Tom Cooper was entered but did not start the Vanderbilt Cup Elimination race in 1905. I wonder if the truck was made out of parts of one of these cars? Thanks to Kurtis for the lead to the photos.
Wilcox was killed at a fairgrounds track in Converse (IN) on October 13 in 1946. He was the official starter for the event (CSRA? MDTRA?), and stepped out onto the track to flag the winner, Jimmie Wilburn, when he was hit by the car of Kenny Wines, which was hidden in a cloud of dust. In those days, dirt tracks were really... dirt!
The Jalopy Journal
