I probably still have your email, but I don't have a working scanner! Quite happy to lend you the book though
No, I am sure it is not lost, as I mentioned Waterman sold it a long, long time ago or traded it. The car is a Benz not a Mercedes, it was from before the two companies became connected. Waterman did have one of the best early Mercedes race cars, it was about an 1908 or so and it is still around. He also had a big six cylinder Mercedes roadster along with a stable filled w/the best early racing and road cars of the time. This car I am sure is restored, I just do not know where it went. As to the wire wheels I am sure it originally came w/artillery wheels but may have been kept in active use long enough get changed over to wire wheels in the early teens when they became available here.
David, that makes sense that it is a Benz. I was out last night and hurriedly went thru the posts and it kind of threw me. I believed Waterman had the 1908 spare team Mercedes (which is owned by George Wingard last time I saw it). I had thought the Waterman Mercedes was in very good condition but wondered if there was another 1908 car I did not know about. I had a recollection of a 1908 Mercedes that raced in Europe with the 1913 GP Mercedes (if my memory is correct) that had wire wheels and thought this may be the car. Now that you say it the engine does look a lot like the Benz. Amazing that Waterman collected such great stuff. I too believe it is restored and the story of its provenance and originality is I am sure a story to behold. Just needed a little TLC-Jim
Ehdubya, thanks for the link I came across that site before but it looked a bit different and although good really does not go into these cars too deeply. It is hard to find much good stuff on the Schneiders but they deserve a little ink. Thanks-Jim
This photo was posted yesterday by T-Head and needless to say, it caught my attention. Is there any info of this car and it's Australian owner?
Thanks. There isn't much print out there. It seems there are more surviving cars and trucks than there are words.
Kurtis, His whole story can be found on this link. I found a photo of him there and it looks just like him. http://adbonline.anu.edu.au/biogs/A100280b.htm
It seems you have a good memory Jim. The 1908 car you may be referring to might in fact be the one Leon Elskamp drove in the 1913 French GP. The Otto Salzer car also looks very similar to the Waterman car, atleast from the firewall back. I think Ralph De Palma also drove an '08 car, with updated bodywork in the 1914 Vanderbilt Cup.
Thankyou David. I strongly doubt it but i wonder if he brought the car back. There were some discoveries of Stutz and most recently a FIAT chassis but i don't recall someone owning a Mercedes racing car.
T-Head, Here's one of the pics of Mabel Cody/Sig Haugdahl doing the stunt on the beach that I was talking about:
The 1908 Mercedes GP car the Waterman had looks almost identical to the first photo. He found it in Bennington, Vt. and at the time it was owned By Karl Martin who built the Wasp automobile, which was a high quality assembled car. It was in excellent condition and they had it running again in no time, this was back in the 40's possibly. I believe that George Wingard does in fact own it now although I do not believe it is the car in this photo. If you compare this car to the Benz in the second photo you can see the differences. They were two different companies that later became Mercedes-Benz. This has lead to much confusion over the years as people think they are one and the same. The first Mercedes-Benz brand name vehicles were produced in 1926, following the merger of Karl Benz's and Gottlieb Daimler's companies into the Daimler-Benz company.
These engine photos and drawings show the differences in the Benz and the Mercedes which were two different makers. The first a photo from Benz, a Blitzen type engine. 21 liter 185mm x 200 mm (7.283" x 7.874") 200 HP at 1600 RPM. The second a photo of the engine in the unrestored car I posted earlier. The third is a section of the Benz engine showing the OHV construction. The forth is a drawing from Mercedes showing their valve design. Intake valve above and exhaust on the side and below. This was used in the GP car. The fifth is a section of the 1905 Mercedes engine design. This shows the huge intake valve at the top and the exhaust under and to the side. The normal Mercedes passenger car was a T-Head design.
This is the Mercedes racing car from one year earlier 1907. What they call the 120 HP Rennwagen 1. This is very similar to the 1908 GP car.
For comparison purposes with the Benz and earlier Mercedes this is Ralph DePalma and the Grey Ghost. This car was a 1908 GP type with the newer 37/90 engine shown here. Three of them were brought into the country the other two raced by Wishart, Mulford and other drivers. They had a very good run during the years of 1911-15. The 37/90 engine was 130mm x 180mm 8.8 liters (5.118" x 7.086") with two exhaust valves and one intake. DePalma won the 1912 & 1914 Vanderbilts, two Elgin races in 1912 and finished 2nd & 3rd at the Savannah races in 1911 with this combination. The third photo is DePalma's engine with a Rayfield racing carburetor in 1912. The forth photo shows a 37/90 on the left compared with a 38/80 a standard T-Head type used in their passenger cars.
I have seen the Mercedes, post #2126 in person at IMS Museum and seem to recall that it was the earlier type. I also do not remember who they attribute the car to either. I have watched it run at Goodwood and it goes very well. I wonder if they have a website for the museum there? That may give you the whole story on the car.
A little OT but all this recent talk of Harry Hartz got me thinking of the mythical 33 DeSoto he's said to have driven 'backwards' coast to coast in a publicity stunt for Chrysler to promote their coming aerodynamic design. It's variously described as a coupe, roadster and sedan and having the diff flipped to provide 3 reverse speeds. A roadster with the body mounted backwards makes the most sense but no pictures seem to exist.
All photos are from 1901-1903. 1st photo, 35 HP four with mechanically operated valves and make and break ignition. 2nd photo, 6.5 liter 50 Hp at 1200 RPM. 3rd photo, cutaway drawing. 4th photo, Werner at Meeting of Nice 1901. 5th photo, Braun at Meeting of Nice 1903. 6th photo, Meeting of Nice 1903. 7th photo, Zborowski before the start of Parris-Vienna 1902.
That's pretty good. I like that. Do you mind if i steal that? Great stuff. I haven't seen these photos before. I think most of the cars at that meeting were running an alcohol mix and i'm certain Zborowski crashed that same car in Switzerland. He was somewhat of a hot head a times but a true racer who didn't care much for stock chassis cars, instead preferring a purpose built machine. Camille Jenatzy - 1904 Mercedes 90hp. I don't know where he raced this particular car.
aww c'mon, a true racer cares more about having someone to dice with than what they're driving, not some rich boy who wants to run away
Jenatzy at the 1906 GP of the French Auto Club at LeMans, changing a tire at his pit on his Mercedes. Second photo, Circuit des Ardennes, 1906 Otto Salzer and his Mercedes.
Pierre de Caters on his last racing drive before retirement, winning the Circuit des Ardennes, July 1907 aboard his Mercedes.
Buildy, The Lautenschlager Mercedes was bought from the factory by Spencer Wishart for some were around $90,000 and raced in the INDY 500 in 1911 and 1912. Larry Beales installesd a HISSO V8 aero engine in the car and it stayed that way until it sold to a collector in Germany about 10 years ago. I got to see it and sit in it just before it left the USA, it was a great car, and should have been left as is IMO.
Kurtis, Great photo! I'm guessing this is the same cat Jenatzy drove in the July 3, 1907 Seine-Inferieure G.P
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