I did a full write up with pictures of a Master barrel throat carb for one of the Monthly Banger meets. Will see if I can find it. Though my write up is for a "stock" single barrel.
Interesting article about the 999 re-engined and running at Playa Del Rey in 1910. http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85042462/1910-03-27/ed-1/seq-37/ Select PDF and choose 100 percent size to read the article.
By all accounts the events that would take place in 1878 suggest it was indeed a race. Competing against a fellow man is racing. This is another version describing the events that took place in Wisconsin in 1878 courtesy of Teamdan. Green Bay - Madison, WI. 16th - 23rd July 1878 - 201 miles. 1. F.Shomer/A.M.Farrand. Oshkosh. 33:27:00 - 6.01mph. R. E. Cowles.Green Bay. mechanical. NA. F.E.Hibbard. Fond du Luc. NA. J.E.Baker. Madison. NA. Cross. Sun Prairie. NA . Milwaukee. engine. The Wisconsin legislature of 1875 passed a law offering a bounty of $10.000 for the invention of an improved steam road wagon that could run two hundred miles on country roads at the rate of atleast five miles per hour hauling a heavy road. The competition wasn't arranged until 1878 - the Governer appointed the following committee to test the competing machines and to make the award: George M.Marshall of Adams County, G.C.Olin of Jefferson County and John F.Smith of Green Bay. The machines entered were named after the towns from which the competitors came. The machines started from the corner of Broadway and Dousman in Green Bay although only two of the six entrants turned up at the start. The Madison entry of Mr.Baker was in fine working condition on the Saturday before the event but it hadn't been shipped to the start in time. The Milwaukee's single cylinder failed to work properly and was scratched. The original start time was meant to be 9am but it was delayed to 11am after the Green Bay went through a culvert damaging it's governer. The route was to follow the C&NW railway South to Janesbillethen to Beloit and Madison. When the competitors reached Oshkosh the machines had to take part in a pulling contest dragging around three tons from the Foster & Jones lumber mill to the Oshkosh Fairgrounds. The Green Bay took an early lead but when the Oshkosh pulled out to overtake a wheel of the loaded wagon struck a hole on the outer edge of the road and broke the log chain attatching the wagonto the steam vehicle. A toggle was made to reattatch the wagon , but on accelerating off a pin was broken and had to be repaired. After the delay the commisioners decided that the loads just be hauled around the streets instead of to the Fairgrounds but the Oshkosh frightened a horse and unable to effectively brake, it veered sideways, hit the sidewalk and broke one of the wheels. The competitors then had to take part in a 1 mile sprint which the Oshkosh completed in 4m35. and in which the Green Bay broke down during three separate attempts. repairs were made to the Green Bay and both lined up side by side to race each other. The Green Bat pulled away faster, getting a gap of a quarter of a mile until it closed on the finishing line and went bang, coasting to a halt and not moving. The Oshkosh passed it to complete the distance in 4m41. This would appear to be the first recorded race on a closed circuit between motorised vehicles. The vehicles left Oshkosh at 5pm to Waupun with the Green Bay encountering mechanical problems and needing repairs. Outside of Fort Atkinson the Oshkosh took part in a ploughing trial on the farm of Mr.Snell, ploughing most of the 60 acre field. It set out to Madison immediately afterwards and made it that night at 11pm. On the Thursday morning the Oshkosh performed laps around the Capital Park. At the same time the Green Bay was stuck in a ditch outside of Jefferson. The Madison did eventually turn up and was allowed to start late, joining the contest at Fort Atkinson, however it later became stuck in mud.
Some Recent images of competitive cars.... An Amilcar, MG J2, and J3 (I think), some early American cars... Some great racing images on this post!
Using that logic, I would have to assume that it could be used to include, say, posting as many pictures as possible on this thread as being a form of competition or racing. I would suggest that the term used in the first years of automotive competition, "contests," would seem to best suit the 1878 Wisconsin Steam Wagon journey. The number of tours, trials, and reliability runs in the first decade or so of the automobile often equaled or even exceeded the races during this period. Too often we tend to suffer from intertemporal comparisons as to what constitutes, among many other things, competition. Those few moments on the track at Oshkosh were the first attempt at "racing" such machines, the other aspects of the competition being contests designed to test the reliability, endurance, and capabilities of these Steam Wagons. Of course, there is also the problem that Chicago faces with the races at Narragansett the following year being the prototype for modern -- at least American -- automobile racing: on a closed track (oval in this case) and a massed start of the competitors, the latter not becoming commonplace until well into the Twenties in Europe. I suggest that racing in the commonly accepted sense of the automobile racing that followed and still continues today had its start in Rhode Island, not Illinois. Of course, that is simply my personal observation.
After the posts from Kurtis and Don Capps about what a race is I thought I would find what other sources consider a race to be so that we can all learn from this. Don, as you mention it is just your personal observation in you last post about what you define as a race. I thought it would be interesting to see just what Wikipedia and a dictionary define a race as. Wikipedia tells us this name for an event of this type goes back as far as ancient Greece. The links to both sources are after each. Dictionary.com in the second listing that follows, tells us this, which is what was the objective of the steam road wagon event. 3. any contest or competition, esp. to achieve superiority: the arms race; the presidential race. Here is the Wikipedia definition......... A sport race is a competition of speed, against an objective criterion, usually a clock or to a specific point. The competitors in a race try to complete a given task in the shortest amount of time. Typically this involves traversing some distance, but it can be any other task involving speed to reach a specific goal. A race may be run continuously from start to finish or may be made of several segments called heats, stages or legs. A heat is usually run over the same course at different times. A stage is a shorter section of a much longer course or a time trial. Early records of races are evident on pottery from ancient Greece, which depicted running men vying for first place. A chariot race is described in Homer's Iliad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racing race1   [reys] Show IPA noun, verb,raced, rac·ing. –noun 1. a contest of speed, as in running, riding, driving, or sailing. 2. races, a series of races, usually of horses or dogs, run at a set time over a regular course: They spent a day at the races. 3. any contest or competition, esp. to achieve superiority: the arms race; the presidential race. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/race
Photos I have grouped together showing one of of Americas early automobiles that were at the forefront of early racing..... Simplex. George Robinson in the Simplex Zip. Lou Disbrow, who we have also seen at Old Orchard Beach in the Zip. The Simplex Camp at what appears to be one of the 24HR Grinds. Frank Crokers early racer in which he came to a bad ending in Florida on the beach. Croker, his mechanic and a motor cyclist all died after an incident at Ormond. This racer or a similar one also basically broke in half during a race which if I remember correctly was a Vanderbilt Cup race, because the frame had been weakened by so many lightening holes in it.
Keith, that's the one. Thanks for the pic of the plaque. The book says that both the chassis and engine numbers are from missing cars...villainy. Cris
Of course it was a race. If we look back to the Paris-Rouen Trial of 1894 there are some who have called this a race and there are others that will maintain it was a trial. It was called a trial because that is what it was. It was something that had never been done before. Now, if these same persons that believe in the latter and won't budge from their position on what they assume to be fact, i say to them, stop for a moment and consider the race that took place before that fateful day in the French capital. Men were racing against each other but not actually knowing who they were racing against. Yes, they were building an automobile to participate in something that they themselves didn't really understand what was to happen leading up to the 22nd of July but i can assure you that all of those gentleman were trying to the best of their ability to build something better than the other. The same can be said about the events that took place when that day did come. It would be ignorant to assume that some of those competitiors who did front for the start of the days events were there just to have a drive through the streets. They were there to win a race. Now if we turn to the events of 1878 in Wisconsin it is the same argument. You yourself start by saying it was an 'odyssey' then you refer to it as a 'contest' but go on to describe in your own words what happened in July of that year was actually a race. You also state that events similar to these two were called 'contests' decades later, so what should they be called now that we are decades from that description. A race? Reading your desciption and the one i posted shows us that at least one stage in this 'odyssey, trial, contest or whatever word you can think of, there actually was a race that took place. When those two vehicles lined up against each other at the Fairgrounds do you think that either one of the drivers wanted to be the loser? Of course not. There might even be a question of what was the forerunner to the first ever drag race. In my mind a contest and a race is very much the same word when talking about Autoracing but a trial on the other hand is something that isn't achieved until it has been done to some success. Then it becomes another word.
Using that logic, I would assume that it could be used to include, say, posting so much dribble on how opinions differ from enthusiast to enthusiast. Yes, we are all enthusiasts whether some have read one book or hundreds but we are also historians that at times do get things wrong. It's confronting our mistakes with acceptance that sets us apart as men. I suggest you re-read what Jim Dillon posted previously in the hope you might accept and realise the HAMB is for hotrodders and not for the events that took place before before their own history was born. Photos and pictures Rule here. If it was just typing words without images i would bet my house this thread would not have survived past a day. Something i think you wish would of happened.
The "Paris-Rouen Trial" or, more correctly, the Concours des Voitures sans Chevaux was not a race, it was a mass road test for want of a better word. The objective was to promote the usage and sales of cars by awarding prizes to the manufacturers who demonstrated their products. The distribution of the prizes was done by a jury, composed of journalists and engineers, and the main objectives were safety, practicality and economy - speed was not considered essential, except for a minimum speed target that was chosen (and eventually lowered), presumably merely for organisational reasons (i.e. to get the event over with in an acceptable time frame). Of course, one main selling point of the new voiture automobile was its speed, and most manufacturers were keen to demonstrate the possibilities of the cars in that respect, so that there was a certain element of pride at stake from the beginning, but the trial was not timed as such as speed was never part of the regulations. Subsequent to the event, times of arrival were published, and used in many publications, but these were generally ignorant of the many compulsory stops on the way, and only very vaguely reflective of the actual speeds that had been achieved. In short, to call that event a "race" is simply ignorant of facts. None of the competitors "were there to win a race", they were there to win a prize that was in no way connected to any speed objective. There was no race.
Getting back to the "Hurgenhauser", is that an HRG engine? The similarities to a Miller Marine are simply staggering!
There's plenty of interesting reading in the papers of the day on Frank Croker. His companion a 'recently arrived Frenchman' is called Aaroul and Raoul in two reports and Raeul and Rauel in another. He seems to have been killed instantly when the car flipped three times, 'each higher than the last' according to witnesses and landed in the surf on top of him and Croker who peeled a tire off swerving to avoid an oncoming sidechair outfit's evasive action. Stanley the motorcyclist survived with one or two broken legs depending on the report, the accident appears to have occurred on the eve of scheduled racing. Croker's injuries weren't thought to be severe and his chances of survival good after treatment and his death the following morning was attributed to shock. Veteran Paris Berlin crasher 'Mad Anthony of France' is quoted as saying things like 'a rock half the size of a hen egg will upset you at such speeds' and the writer reasoned this was proof of the madness of speed automobiling if such an accident could occur on the 'ballroom flat' beach. Croker is said to have been self made after his death with a fortune of around $400,000 derived from a roofing company, he'd not long before acquired a new boat powered by two 24hp Rochet Schneiders. His brother Hubert died 4 months later under suspicious curmumstances as far as I read. I think you can see the repaired chassis of the Simplex, it looks like a doubler slightly covering one of the lightening holes where they stop. The other clips are 1904 Vanderbilt and Diminishing Aristocracy is 1908
Look on the bright side Cris, It's endemic but with so much replication going on and quality improving to the point original cars are often less authentic you'll never be wanting for spares.
Precisely, Michael. To quote Gerald Rose, in his "Record of Motor Racing 1894-1908": "In relating the eventful story of the early efforts of the pioneers to whom we owe the self-propelled vehicle of modern times, it is customary to consider that the Concours des Voitures san Chevaux organised by Le Petit Journal in 1894 was the first of the long series of races and contests by which the motor car has been so marvellously developed. But it is not correct to describe the Petit Journal contest for two very excellent reasons: - First it was not a race, and secondly, it was not the first open contest for self-propelled vehicles on the public road ... the first prize was to be awarded to the car which seemed to the Judges to best fulfill the conditions of being "without danger, easily handled, and of low running cost ... "" So, as you can see, speed had nothing to do with it. The contest was designed to determine which car was simultaneously the safest, most practicable - and cheapest to run! Cheapness to run and practicability were the reasons the De Dion Bouton - which the judges nevertheless noted was the fastest, especially uphill - was not awarded first prize: like the Serpollet of Le Blant and all the other steamers it required two people to run it. It's also usually said that the De Dion was the fastest over the distance, but as Michael ponted out there were compulsory stops and Rose (although he published a table of times) specifically states that "it is impossible to calculate the times with any accuracy." There was no official timing (because it wasn't a race) so any timing information is purely based on somebody saying something like "M Lemaitre left Mantes at 1.33". In the end he relied on guesswork, since in the afternoon run the cars left Mantes "at irregular intervals" starting at 1.30pm and he applied a blanket 25 minute figure for the compulsory stops. In the end, there was just three and a half minutes difference in the "calculated" elapsed time between the De Dion and the Peugeot: so if (say) Lemaitre actually left at 1.37, he was actually faster. But nobody really cared how fast they went: the important thing was getting there. 80 miles was a long way in 1894 and it should also be remembered that there had been elimination trials in the week previously, over six routes of between 30 and 35 miles. Four of the 25 cars presented failed to complete even those and were not allowed to start the run to Rouen. If your French is good enough, you can find the original announcement of the contest in the December 19th 1893 issue of Le Petit Journal, which is available on the French National Library website Gallica. The rules were published the following day. Gallica also has Pierre Souvestre's book L'Histoire de L'Automobile online, which is a marvellous source for early research.
Gentleman.... what you are in fact overlooking is speed is not a necessary ingredient for any event, contest or competition to be a race. Michael....... Kurtis is not being "ignorant of the facts". You wrote that...... "They were there to win a prize" Yes this is in fact a contest or competition. Please read #3 below. Vitesse........ "So, as you can see, speed had nothing to do with it. The contest was designed to determine which car was simultaneously the safest, most practicable - and cheapest to run!" Yes this is in fact a contest or competition. Please read #3 below. race1   [reys] Show IPA noun, verb,raced, rac·ing. noun 1. a contest of speed, as in running, riding, driving, or sailing. 2. races, a series of races, usually of horses or dogs, run at a set time over a regular course: They spent a day at the races. 3. any contest or competition, esp. to achieve superiority: the arms race; the presidential race. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/race
Sure looks like an OFFY to me in that HRG. I don't know the technical name for the four quarter eliptic spring front end but that was used bu MILLER as well. Who gets credit for inventing that suspention setup, must be a very early design.
Rubbish! A race as defined in 3 is an abstract concept. Or a journalistic construct, if you prefer. There are contests for - for example - literature, art and television programmes, but neither the Prix Goncourt nor the Venice Bienniale - let alone the Golden Rose of Montreux - can in any sense be described as a "race". They are judged contests, the winner determined on opinion and artistic merit: much as the Paris-Rouen was.
Agreed and if you can't see a race requires racing you should be black flagged from the human race and sent to the front of the war on race to fight the racists.
Gentleman....... I am sure that many of us will never, ever agree on this point and we should just leave it at that. This started out as statements that various contests not involving speed were not in fact races. Several definitions that have been presented that in fact show that the steam wagon contest was in fact a race. Speed does not have to be involved. A contest or competition is in fact a race, as in a political race or an arms race. Speed does not have to be an element, it is about who comes out superior in the end..... the winner. Here is another definition of a race in the second part of #4 below. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race Main Entry: 1race Pronunciation: \ˈrās\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English ras, from Old Norse rās; akin to Old English rǣs rush Date: 14th century 1 chiefly Scottish : the act of running 2 a : a strong or rapid current of water flowing through a narrow channel b : a watercourse used industrially c : the current flowing in such a course 3 a : a set course or duration of time b : the course of life 4 a : a contest of speed b plural : a meeting in which several races (as for horses) are run c : a contest or rivalry involving progress toward a goal <pennant race> 5 : a track or channel in which something rolls or slides; specifically : a groove (as for the balls) in a bearing — see roller bearing So I am going to leave this all here and get back to what is really important, and why we are all here, to enjoy early racing cars, photos and information. This is a comunity and we all need to be more tolerent about other peoples viewpoints and work together. There are also a few people who should think twice before leaving their blunt comments about what someone else has posted. This is about everybody not just youself. I am to leave this will a couple of quotes from Kurtis. "Yes, we are all enthusiasts whether some have read one book or hundreds but we are also historians that at times do get things wrong. It's confronting our mistakes with acceptance that sets us apart as men." "I suggest you re-read what Jim Dillon posted previously in the hope you might accept and realise the HAMB is for hotrodders and not for the events that took place before before their own history was born." "Photos and pictures Rule here."
Probably an indisputible fact: "The FIRST automobile race, in any given location, occurred 30-minutes after the second automobile arrived at that location". ;o)
It's an Offy 110. Runs Methanol at 15:1 compression ratio. Has been in the car for a long time. Hey, by the way, guys from TNF...please try to refrain from bringing your old, un-won arguments over onto this site. This is a good thread and a few of you seem intent on picking scabs. The opinions and the semantics and the agendas are threatening to soil one of the better threads on this site. Cris
No vintage pictures ............Just pictures of Vintage racers last of my ones from the Race Retro Show........ Lets get back to the TOPIC ! . .
This race car, called the Hubley Bluenose Special, no. 6, was built by Reginald Hubley assisted by his father ca. 1936. Hubley was a mechanic from Halifax . The race car was assembled using components from various automobile manufacturers and was considered a "big car" in the jargon of the race course, or a sprint car. Hubley participated in races held in Halifax at the Provincial Exhibition. He won a record number of races with no. 6. In 1938, the race car was put into storage until 2003 when it was restored to working condition and returned to the racetrack. This is one of only two racing cars in Canada that survive from before the Second World War. The other remaining example in Canada is not functional. Two other Canadian race cars of the period have been sold to American owners. No. 6 is emblematic of the phenomenon of racing cars on short dirt race tracks, popular in Canada in the early days of the automobile until the Second World War and beyond. . .
The Jalopy Journal
