Mac, article is here, at the bottom of the page...... http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?i...ntryGB&sa=N&rlz=1R2GPEA_en&ndsp=18&tbs=isch:1 . . Keith
Very well said Cris and I am going to add this from an earlier post of mine....... So I am going to leave this all here and get back to what is really important, and why we are all here, to enjoy early racing cars, photos and information. This is a comunity and we all need to be more tolerent about other peoples viewpoints and work together. There are also a few people who should think twice before leaving their blunt comments about what someone else has posted. This is about everybody not just youself. I am to leave this with a couple of quotes from Kurtis. "Yes, we are all enthusiasts whether some have read one book or hundreds but we are also historians that at times do get things wrong. It's confronting our mistakes with acceptance that sets us apart as men." "I suggest you re-read what Jim Dillon posted previously in the hope you might accept and realise the HAMB is for hotrodders and not for the events that took place before before their own history was born." "Photos and pictures Rule here."
Although I have not researched the accident of Frank Croker at length, I have read a couple of accounts. As I understand a motorcyclist (HF Stanley also referred to as Newton Stanley, a relative of the more well known F E Stanley) was ridng along the waters edge during Croker's run and turned in front of Croker. Croker tried to miss Stanley and hit the motorcycle and then was out of control, Apparently the wheels stuck in the sand and threw the car and its occupants and then allegedly the car hit the occupants during the melee. The chauffeur ( I have read Alexander Raoul) was killed instantly. Croker did make it through the night but died early the next morning probably from shock according to the press reports. I have not read where Stanley died although he may have been crippled from the accident. The car was the same car (made at Smith & Mabley) that raced in the earlier Vanderbilt race but had some changes made since then (or atl east reported as such). Here are a few pictures of the wreck-Jim
Buddy Callaway was actually from Macon (GA), but moved to Miami in the mid thirties. Raced all the way through the thirties, mostly IMCA, and pretty much always with #64. He had a Hisso-engined #64 two-seater at Indy in '32, but did not qualify, and later ran this single seater with a Curtiss K6 aviation engine (there are two exhaust ports per cylinder). He was sponsored by Luthy in 1938, maybe also before and/or after, so this is only a rough guide in dating the picture. His younger brother L. J. "Foggy" Callaway also raced, mostly with #65, during those same years, and after WW2 Stan Callaway (Foggy's son) raced a Curtiss (this one?) in IMCA up until the mid fifties. Buddy was 4th in IMCA points in 1937, and Stan 6th in 1953 & '54. Buddy ran AAA 1932-34, and Foggy 1933-36, possibly longer.
Jim, thanks for the great Croker photos. Simplex is part of the menu here in the shop and I have never seen a photo of that car so clear before. More photos of Florida racing action. The first photo is captioned at the De Land Fairgrounds. The following photos are all captioned the Tampa Fairgrounds track but the last one appears to be in a different place judging by the grand stands. All appear to be from about the mid 20's. Please enlighten us if you can identify any of the cars. Thanks for the Callaway info Michael. What I meant to say was that the track is suposed to be in Florida.
Cris: I'm quite happy to agree to disagree. I shall merely quote from kurtis' first post in this thread: Michael, Don and I have all - at various times and in various places - challenged some of the myths and fairy-tales which have made their way into the literature: the Eifelrennen paint scratching, the Indianapolis champagne-quaffing and team orders at Monza in 1956 being just three. I also want to know who concocted the story about Emilio Villoresi being killed testing a car after drinking too much at lunch: total poppy****, but you can find it all over the internet! Yes - this thread is all about pictures, and much appreciated as such, but a picture with a wrong caption is worse than useless ...
Hey, we're loading her up and out the door for Mohave Valley Raceway and a joint vintage event with WRA and Billy Shuman's SW Chapter of West Coast Vintage Racers. Thanks to all of you for your wonderful contributions to this thread and drumming up some interest in old cars. Have a terrific weekend.
Not a sports car race, but the RAC International Light Car Race, June 3rd 1937. For racing cars up to 1500cc (voiturettes). Raymond Mays in the works ERA coming up to lap the Maserati 6CMs of Robin Hanson (#14) and Austin Dobson (#18). Mays finished second, Dobson 8th and Hanson 9th.
The Volusia County Fairgounds in De Land often ran races in February, after the State Fair. The last picture is also Plant Field, it's taken from the top of the grand stand cover (you can see somebody standing exactly in the same spot in the other pictures). As for the cars, I think I can see Fred Horey's Miller/Duesenberg in a couple of pics, but the driver looks more like Haugdahl to me - I believe Sig drove this car after Horey retired (~ 1928/29). A few more look familiar, but I'm not very good on IMCA cars and races.
Corrections and discussion are always welcome here but not comments about how the poster is a total ignoramus for posting something. This is about pictures and education, not about putting the other person down because they do not know as much as the "experts". This is a community here and regardless of who they are, people need to be treated with respect. There are people on here from all walks of life, from all over the world. We are have different interests and areas of expertise and we need to work together to make this a better place where we can all learn from and help each other.
Hmm. It must be 'pick on Kurtis day', or is that everyday? It seems i have contradicted myself. But why? Hmm. It also seems you have missed my point of view regarding the discussion with Don, or didn't you, or was your post something of another nature. Was it in support of Gerald Rose or in support of....hmm. If it was in support of Mr Rose then i'm ***uming that you do in fact agree with my points of what i deem to be race. You say a picture with a wrong caption is worse than useless. I agree. This is one of many reasons why this thread is of benefit to all who are interested on this subject.
Now, are we going to blabber and blahdy blah blah about individual theories concerning a particular subject or can anyone please help me with any information regarding this particular car? Anyone.
Not wishing to prolong this useless discussion, but it was Kurtis who first accused Don of being ignorant. And that in spite of the fact that Don had, correctly, identified the one-mile "trial" at the Fairgrounds as the first race, and not the whole 200-mile "reliability contest" of hauling, plowing, threshing etc. Next thing you'll know somebody will come here and expalin to us why the Glidden Tour or the New York Auto Show was a "race"... The Germain, what do you want to know? It's all here or there, somewhere, not sure if I want to dig it up if all I can expect is abuse.
Ah, no. Actually a big NO to put it so bluntly. I have never posted something accusing Don of being ignorant although it can be interpreted that way, depending on what side of the fence one is sitting. Everything you mentioned in your description of the Concours des Voitures sans Chevaux is correct. My point was the 'race' between the builders of the vehicles, not in the trial or contest but during the actual building of the cars themselves. Unfortunately Vitesse and yourself have taken my comments out of context. I never did mention speed when i referred to the 1894 event but i did talk about it when on the subject of the 1878 Wisconsin contest/race. Michael, i suggest you re-read the last paragraph in your post to see who is calling who ignorant. It's also bewildering to me why you don't wish to do something but go ahead and do it anyway. I'm not here to argue, only to learn. What about you? I would hope for the same but also to teach. You have done the latter so well up to this point, why stop now. Now, onto the Germain and my interest. I'm not looking for a full description of the car to be written on these pages, although i won't argue against it, but a link of any sort guiding me in the right direction. I've searched but nothing relevant seems to be mentioned. I have a book here telling me the engine was of 5 liters and of Panhard influence but in computer land it's telling me it was a 4.2 liter. Again. If you don't wish to help, well, i can understand, sort of. Cheers.
Thanks. Another aspect that makes this thread like no other. This Fletcher could be considered as an earlier version of a vacuum secondary carburetor. BTW, did you find out any more on the Breese carb?
Will let Harry talk about the carby, and I will post the pictures: here is a break down of a Miller/ Master barrel throat carb: Patent: Patent: Patent: Left side of carb, throttle arm: Top of carb down, barrel closed (idle): Top of carb down, barrel open, jet bar view: Right side of carb, choke arm detail: The whole mess apart: Float bowl and throttle barrel: Float bowl, choke plate (open) , and jet bar: Up the barrel closed: Up the barrel open:
Re: post 2321. Jim, if you didn't have your sources at hand, you have an astonishing and accurate recollection. According to **** Punnett's book, Racing on the Rim (1997) which chronicles much of the Daytona racing between 1903 and 1910, Croker's mechanic was Alexander Raoul. Newton Stanley was indeed a nephew of FO and FE Stanley. The account given was that Croker and Raoul were heading north from Daytona and overtook Stanley. As they did so, a wave forced Stanley to swerve left into their path. The Simplex rolled several times, and Raoul was killed instantly (Croker died the following morning). Stanley suffered a broken leg.
Re: Crocker's accident. This is The New York Times article the following day. Very much what Jim stated.
I wish my memory was that good. I collected some pictures of the beach racing on Ormond (1905) and had several pictures of the accident. I researched it a bit and found the newspaper article on the accident and a couple of other little blurbs on the accident and made some notes on it. Many of my notes are on 3x5 cards as I started doing research back when that was high tech I guess. Some of the pictures are disappearing on the paper and I have preserved some of them, others are pretty well gone. They appear to be pretty original so figure better post them before they are gone as well.-Jim
The carburetor is now back on the car and it is running well. You can see now why it was patinated as its cleanliness and bright and clean bronze color would have been out of place. Now all I have to do is put a 100 miles on it and it will look totally undisturbed.
No but I think you can expect to see this and the other one getting their legs stretched together this summer.
The Jalopy Journal
