I've read all the posts so far and I haven't seen anyone mention how important compression is. Do a compression check with a screw-in guage that is trustworthy. Do a second test after putting a teaspoon of oil in each cyl. If the reading is significantly higher the second time, the rings are probably stuck. If there is no change, the valves are probably leaking. I don't remember what the book calls for but if readings are down around, 40psi or even 50, It will need to be spun real fast. We used to take a car like that out and tow it to start it. Sometimes it would take several miles with the transmission in second gear.
I went through this on a 53 chevy--The flywheel lined up with the timing mark on the sight hole above the starter, but it wouldn't run--turns out some dummy had the clutch out and moved the flywheel a third of a turn so the timing was off 120 degrees. Check number one compression against timing mark.
Under load it's about fuel demand and spark demand ( timing ) at idle it could be a vacuume leak, how true is the intake to head and carb to base? If there is spark and fuel and compression, be sure the stociometric ratio isn't askew with a vac leak
FYI, your firing order is cast into your intake manifold, but it's in the manual, too. Next time you won't have to look it up though! I believe the ball is the actual timing mark. I've never seen that arrow, at least not in the 2-3 235s I worked on. Maybe it's a 216 thing.
QUOTE=Kool49;5034208].............the compression is fairly strong pops my thumb out of the hole pretty good. Suction on the intake ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Thanks[/QUOTE] That's plenty good enough for it to run........ Yep; Your timeing is close enough for it to run, no doubt, you have physically verified that with piston up on compression stroke the finger on the distributor is aimed to where you are going to put #1 spark plug wire. To find out if you are getting fire, that your points/condenser/coil are working, Leave the distributor cap OFF. Put the coil wire in the coil. Hold the other end close to the motor block and crank the motor. If spark, should be bright, blue-white, is jumping consistently from the coil wire, you have good points/condenser/coil. If spark is red something is wrong but don't presume it's anything else until you have used a new coil wire. Same song, second verse if you get weak spark at any spark plug later on. New wire is the first thing I do. Battery should be charged up, a weak battery will contribute to weak spark. Assuming you get fire from the coil when cranking, next, check the little carbon button in the distributor cap, verify that it's contacting the clip on top of the rotor and that the rotor and distributor cap aren't cracked anywhere. Put the distributor cap on and run wires from it to each spark plug. Numbers are on picture. Then crank it some more and check for fire from each wire........ Just to be sure. As you say it's sounding more like your carb....... I would rig something that supplied the pump. Pouring gas in the carb will almost always flood it, and tend to foul the spark plugs.
Looking ahead; Squirt some oil in the cylinders before putting spark plugs back in; clean them or get new ones. All of that starting fluid, etc has undoubedtly fowled the spark plugs and washed the cylinder walls clean. When you get done with the carb don't use starting fluid, don't prime by squirting gas in the carb, etc, hook up something where the fuel pump is in the picture, just crank and maybe choke it a bit by momentarily holding your hand down on the top of the carb.
Thanks again everyone , i have solved to fuel problem . I know when i get the carb back together the fuel will be there i already tested that ! Im hoping to order my gas tank/sending unit and brakes this week . Any input on using a poly or steel tank ? pros or cons ? Other than steel rusting of course.
I would make my own from steel, cheaper to do, but if buying I think I'd use poly because they're cheaper aren't they, and dependable; Millions of modern cars use them now............
Just ordered my fuel tank/ sending unit and all the new goodies that go with it to get it back to 100%. Been playing around got my carb back together now . Hooked everything up and did as suggested in this thread (prepping for start up ). I cant find my compression checker , and havent found one to borrow just yet . It does have strong compression by feel ( pops your thumb out of the hole real good ! Have a good blue spark at the wire and end of plug! Im starting to believe its just not cranking fast enough as suggested by (NOTGETTINRICH). Dont have any help out here to try that though . Is there any way to get this to crank faster ?????????? It wants to catch you can hear it . I have played with the timing a bit advancing and retarding it . Im close to where it was originaly now but the battery is down now . Im using a craftsman battery charger/starter on it when im doing this also . If it had a 12 volt system i bet it would fire right up !!!!! Any ideas on cranking this volt system a bit faster other than pulling the car ?
If you are sure to keep everything off that is 6 volt, you could use a 12 volt to jump with. The starter will spin faster. If it starts you need to loose the 12 volts right away. As a matter of fact, most 6 volt starters are still in use after a 12 volt swap. Mine is still a 6 volt starter. I did the 12 volt swap years ago.
You could jump it with a 12 volt battery. Make sure all electrical devices are turned off. Just don't crank for more than 15-20 seconds at a time with a ten minute rest period between. If you have put much oil in the cylinders it will probably foul the plugs right away, some of them anyway. It may take many tries and then again it might bang right off. Even if it is still not timed close enough, if you get a little thunder you will know that you are close to success. You have every bit of information on setting the timing that you could possibly need but you might have to run through the procedure more than once to be sure. By the way, here's how little of importance the carbureter is to just getting it to fire and run a bit. You can leave the carb off and just squirt a bit of gas in the manifold and when it starts you can keep it running with another little squirt, although it will be running wide open. I'm not recommending you do that of course. If you had the carb base with the butterfly in place it would not be too scary. Incidently, the term "throttle" means to suppress or slow down, just the opposite of what most people assume. Some of the very early airplanes, WW 1 biplanes for example did not have a throttle. They controlled the speed when needed by pushing a momentary kill-button. It would sound like the plane was in trouble when it was probably just slowing down to come in for a landing.
You could use a 12V battery on the stock 6V starter to move the car if you had to (cranking it with it in gear). If you're pouring an ounce of gas down the carb and it's not running, the problem is timing, I've started tons of cars with a little gas prime, including the 235 in my '50 Chevy. It's not like the tank, you don't fill it up, just a splash or so is plenty.
So i dont have to un hook anything? , just make sure all 6 volt accs are off ? And just jump it or install a 12 volt bat for starting only for now . I think once i get it to start it wont be a issue for the 6 volt system . It has been setting so long its just being stubborn . what about the coil and ingnition parts ( cond / point ) can they handle it ? Thanks
Yes if it's just for a short time. Once it starts just remove the 12 volts and let the 6 volts from the generator keep the car running.
well i have ran out of time for tonight , i tried jumping it with 12 volts and got it to run for about 30 seconds or so . Its cold blooded and i couldnt get it to fire again , i didnt want to crank on it to much and with the 6 volt fuel pump (which i didnt run) during the 12 volt jump . i may get a step down 12v -6 v to run the pump tomorrow . One thing for sure now it will run : ) thanks everyone
Well i got home tonight from work and the 12 volt bat had been charging all day . I had to jump it using the 12 v battery but i got it started finaly . When it got to the point where i could choke it just right i got out and disconnected the jumpers and now it was running on its own 6 volt system. I let it run for about 7 mins or so, the engine runs smooth but is very noisy . I did have the valve cover off , is this a solid lift cam engine ? I do know they can be a bit noisy , i was thinking that the noise was coming more from the front of the engine and not the top end . Sounds more like around the water pump or timing chain area . Almost a grinding or rattling sound ? Its hard to describe but i would like to think it wasnt designed that way ? Maybe the timing chain is worn ? Anyway im happy that it started , and it ended up being that it just wasnt cranking fast enough . Timing is set to where it was when i brought it home . I do have the 6v electric fuel pump that i need to figure out , it wont shut off ! I was told once it had pressure built up it would shut itself off ? When i first hook the wire up the battery the gas will come out of the vent tube of the carb . But after i mess with the throttle it stops . When it was running it was fine no leaks and had very good throttle response. Engine idles very good too. It did have oil pressure , i didnt let it run long enough to get hot . I need to replace the thermostat and gaskets , and put a new valve cover gasket on it . Im just happy its running. Thanks everyone for the help
They are solid lifters. It does not have a timing chain, it has gears. Check for wear in the gears by turning the crank back and forth and watching for motion of the rockers. If it jumps time (gear teeth slip) the crank can hit the cam and break things, like knocking a lobe off the cam. Are the rockers getting oil. It should be pumping oil up into the center of the rocker shaft. A dry water pump can make some strange noises. Do you have coolant in it?
Everything you mentioned checks out good , i did put a gallon of antifreeze in it . I didnt run it long enough for the coolant to flow . It does sound like dry water pump though . I may just put a new one on it , im sure its due .
Hooray. Now, about the fuel pump. I'm guessing that you have the pump up forward where it was easy to install. That could be why it won't shut off. Generally, electric pumps need to be as close to the tank as possible so they are pushing. And do install a large filter before the pump to assure continued operation. There is bound to be crud in that tank that could cause the valves in the pump to leak, not to mention the mischief crud can cause in the carb.
Now that you know it was just a battery with a low charge, are you sure the mechanical fuel pump is bad? The original pump is easier to deal with and more reliable than an electrical one. I'd keep the electrical one in the toolbox for a backup, but run the mechanical pump.
I dont have fuel tank at the moment, using a gas jug as a tank for now . I have a new one on its way with all the extras to go with it . As far as the electric pump , it is mounted at the rear just before the frame rail goes over the rearend and it does have a filter installed . So im not worried about dirt now . As far as keeping the old mechanical pump , yes i still have it and i believe its good . I took it apart and cleaned it out before i even attempted to start the engine .You can put your thunb and finger over the inlet and outlet ports and manualy pump it and feel it working . It just would not prime do to the engine wasnt cranking fast enough . I may put it back on after i get the bugs worked out and i know then engine will fire up easily.
In regards to the mechanical fuel pump, sooner or later they fail. That's a given. Here's the rub: they can fail in two different ways, I suspect the most common is a valve problem. The other is the diaphram. This can be dicey. A small split in the diaphram will allow fuel to be pumped into the crankcase. The pump may still be delivering enough fuel to run the car. Now consider what would take place if you experience an insufficient amount of fuel delivery to keep the car running. You switch on the electric pump and go on driving, all the while fuel is still being leaked into the crankcase. This, my friend, is the argument in favor of a new pump.
Yeah, get a new fuel pump. They're not much. Keep the elcetric one in a tool box in case of a mechnical pump failure. I've heard of more electrical pump failures than (new) mechanical failures.
What is happening when i first go out and connect the electric fuel pump to the battery ( this is temporary keep in mind ). But when the fuel is being delivered to the carb , it will start coming out the brass vent tube . If i hit the throttle one time it will quit . I was told once the bowl filled and the needle and seat shut it would stop the electric pump from running. I just rebuilt this carb , float is setting parallel to the housing, needle and seat look real good. Not sure what is going on with it. I may go back to the mechanical pump (a new one ).
If you didn't "hit the throttle" would it keep running out the vent? The inlet valve of the carb. may be seeing too much pressure from the electric pump. Typical pressure reading should be around 3psi. That's what the mechanical pump will deliver. Your electric pump may exceed that to the point of overwhelming the inlet valve. The fix for this to to install a pressure regulator. But you won't need that if you are going to use a mechanical pump so maybe you should concentrate on getting the fuel system set up as it was originally.
Your right about that , the electric pump is 5 psi . I will more than likely put a new mech fuel pump back on this and see what happens. Oh and yes if i didnt hit the throttle gas would just keep shooting out of the vent tube almost hitting the cowl . Thanks agian everyone .
I've temporarily misplaced the definitive website (small one-guy business) to supply the all-important rubber-composite diaphram for the fuel pump. NOS can be shi%, take it apart and check the diaphram!!
Cosmo, You would be referring to Buna N fuel proof material. There's a problem with your idea. The diaphram is not just a naked piece of rubber but an assembly that consists of metal parts that are riveted toghether in order to provide the attaching point for the pump arm. It's not considered serviceable.
I never said it was a naked piece of rubber. Here are some pics. The first (on left) is a NOS pos assembled badly, the next two are nice composite pieces and you can't see by my pics but they are mils thicker, a sandwiched affair. Third pic is my daily driver only vehicle fuel pump made up of several pumps with about 30 k miles. Hope this helps. Oh yeah rebuild with gaskets in plastic bag.
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