I don't think we disagree on that much. Yes, there were (probably and at least) two different Ogren cars with a Miller engine, but I believe it was always the same engine. And I, too, once believed that Burman had two Peugeots, but as I said, I could never find hard evidence, and my belief is beginning to flag... Btw, the two pictures in the Dees book look so different because they were taken two years and two BIG accidents apart. The Fred McCarthy Peugeot, imho, has to be a 1912 Peugeot, since there were only three built in 1913, and the third never crossed the Atlantic.
Kurtis, I believe the Burman-ex Goux car was rebuilt and driven in a few events. I also seem to remember that it was in another accident (I may have a picture of it after this mishap). It may have been driven sporadically up through 1919, although I cannot swear to that without a little digging. Harvey I believe is one of the guys to drive it-Jim
It was rebuilt and run as the "Burman Special" in 1916, Jack Gable driving, then the "Erbes Special" in 1917 with Andy Burt handling the controls. John Printz thinks it had a Single Cam engine in 1917, which is possible, but I have never seen any evidence for that. John?
Michael if you check the stat sheet for the Chicago Derby in June of 1917 you may notice that both Henning's Ogren and Mason's Ogren had 3.656 x 7.00 292 engines. I believe the first Ogren was the Iron four or whatever one wants to call it. I am assuming that only one copy of this engine was built (admittedly an assumption). The engine that Ogren later ran at Indy I am guessing was an aluminum example. Bunch of guesswork going on but then again I have not figured this stuff out to a science quite yet-Jim
Well, thanks for that! Sadly, I've never seen a stat sheet for the 1917 Chicago Derby. And, playing the devil's advocate here, it may have been in error, too. Alas, I need to ponder my stance on this...
Thanks Jim & Michael. I'm assuming the pics of Paul Harvey are from the Elgin race. Just one more question if i may as i'm a little bit deprived of correct info. Harry Miller cast a new block for Burman while his car was undergoing repairs, correct? How many of these blocks were cast and did Resta have any relationship with Miller during this period?
Kurtis great picture which is also in the AQ book. As to the castings of Miller/Burman, he cast the interchangeable liner engine and some say he may have cast another although I am not sure of that. Possible, I just don't have any supporting data. I will post some pics a little later in this regards. Jim
That painting was by, Jean de Paleologue who used the pseudonyn PAL. His PAL signature can be seen to the right of the front tire. PAL was born in Bucharest, Romainia in 1860. Look closely to the front of the grandstands. The poster was seen during the 1908 Race on the Officials Stand/Press Box located across the Long Island Motor Parkway grandstand in the Hempstead Plains (now Levittown)
I am sure this posted somewhere in this GREAT thread. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJpdglhupSc In NYC at the Museum of the CIty of New York at 104th and 5th Avenue there is a wonderful exhibit. Cars, Culture, and the City and it features this video along with early automobiles in the city. The exhibition will feature visionary drawings and models; historic photographs, films, and advertisements; and a wealth of car memorabilia to tell this fascinating, yet untold, story. http://www.mcny.org/exhibitions/current/Cars-Culture-and-the-City.html
Michael you have done your homework I am sure on the Peugeots but I am a bit confused. Without getting too long winded I had thought Resta came to this country just prior to the 1915 Vanderbilt Cup in March of 1915. I had read that he had been lured by Kaufman the Peugeot distributor out of New York to drive one of the Kaufman cars. Two similar cars I thought were running out of Rickenbackers stable (Ricks and McCarthy) which they both had problems in January of 1915 at the San Diego Exposition. In Rickenbacker's autobiography referring to the 1914 Corona and the San Diego race of January 1915 Rick relates he painted the car white and came up with the speaking tube concept..."and though the speedy Peugeot jumped off to an immediate lead in the race, the engine weakened and we had to quit. When the same thing happened again in the Point Loma race, I gave up the car and unloaded it on a famous automotive engineer named Harry Miller. That was the major mistake of my racing career because he made a tremendous car out of it. It had needed a more complete overhaul than I had thought necessary or could afford." I had thought that Resta was in one of the Kaufman cars and not a hurriedly rebuilt ex-Rickenbacker car just two months after the failure of the cars at San Diego. You may be right but that is throwing me with a curve I have never considered before and the timeline is close. As to the two photographs in the Dees book of the 2 Peugeots. He labels the two photographs from the same time frame-one early 1915 and the other May of 1915. I cannot find any similarities in the frame and all the rivet holes, the cowl and the corresponding body rivets that don't seem to match, the dowel at the base of the hood on the big car, the flange of the exhaust, the turndown location of the header. The ex-Goux car is easy to ID and I believe it was his main mount but even then I feel like it is all a version of "Ground Hog Day" the movie. Take your pictures above of Harvey's car after looking at the mess of the rebuilt ex-Goux? Peugeot of Burman as wrecked by Gable (below). I have seen the ex-Burman cars referred to as Burman specials and Erbes possibly (not too unlikely since he was a money man to Burman). If you study the Gable car it is quite a stretch to lets say to reach Harvey's car if they are one and the same unless it is something akin to Ground Hog Day. On the 1914 cars I am a bit more comfortable with but the early ones I am not so sure Michael, also I am posting a picture of a Peugeot casting in aluminum. Somewhere I have the picture of the other side of the casting. What do you make of this? Also Kurtis here is a pic of the interchangeable liner casting of Burman's Peugeot Motor.-Jim
I do not know which surviving Peugeot engine this but it is a 1913 or later and I would guess this photo was taken post WWII. I am basing this on the level of polish and the nice paint finish and the grooved tread tires which came out maybe in the late fifties or early sixties.
The last thing I want is to interrupt this incredible discussion re Burman, Peugeots, et al, but buried back on page 128, post #2554 was a query re a photo which originally appeared on page #1. Surely there is someone out there - please -who can tell us who, where, what car and when?
Onelung I wish I knew more about the car. It does have a certain racing appeal to it. A bit before the era where I have wasted so much time I guess. David I believe that is the Ex-Duray now ex-Cunningham car that is in the Collier Collection.-Jim
The four valve Peugeot Engine masterpiece in a cutaway, 1913. Thanks for the ID Jim, that was on my list of suspects which you know it is a very short list.
A partial photo of one of my favorite pieces of art. This is a Gamy hand colored Lithograph from 1912 of Boillot in his Peugeot winning the Grand Prix De L' A.C.F - 1912 or the French Grand Prix. This is this first thing I see every morning here in the shop. This photo is of only a third of it as I as the camera lens I need to shoot it is on loan to a friend. It is 36" x 20" and very well done and one of the most beautiful auto racing lithos ever done.
Slim, I just happen to know where the Vanderbilt ticket and drivers pass are. I get them out occasionally to drool over. They are posted on Howard Kroplicks Vanderbilt cup site. Which, if one has not taken a look at is well worth the effort. HG
Photo of the 1912 shaft driven Peugeot engine along with period drawings by Cresswell. This engine differs from the 1913 gear driven engine.
Some more stuff I have from the 1937 Vanderbilt Cup Race. This is that years winner Bernd Rosemeyer..... Not shameless bragging but sharing with my fellow enthuiasts. I have more but don't want too many of you drooling on your keyboard.... HG
Foolish of me to not credit Howard Kroplicks Vanderbilt cup site. Thanks HG. Yes great site, wonderful history. The photo of Bernd Rosemeyer and the back label are amazing. Slim
David, the Gamy you have is a great piece. I may have to see if I can stumble across a copy. I am a huge fan of Montaut and Gamy as well as Peter Helck. I have copies of all of them in my shop. It is hard to pick my favorite as I seem to like them all. I suppose if I had to pick a favorite I would chose the Montaut below called Coupe d'auto I believe. My wife is very good about automotive artwork in the house but she asked me to move this one to my shop. She always felt the car was hit by the train but I always told her when I looked at I always thought the car beat the train-I still do. If I had to pick my favorite piece of art I would have to chose my latest I suppose. From January 3 thru November of 2009 I fought two different forms of cancer. At Meadowbrook last year in kind of the middle of some of the not so fun treatment a great friend presented me with the 905 racer below, telling me maybe this would pick up my spirits during the treatment. I am still stunned. It is a bronze sculpture by Alex Buchan called "The Fastest Man on Earth" (its like 50lbs). It is Ralph DePalma in the 905 on a piece of sandstone replicating his land speed record on the beach at Daytona in 1919. I still stop and look at it every morning in my front hall. This artwork is just another branch of the disease. I also like a bunch of the Vanderbilt cup stuff but the more I look at it the more I might look for some. I have run out of wall space which is good.-Jim
The first race in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil was 1909..We had One before in Sao Paulo 1908 .Here I send some pics of cars from 1909 in Rio de Janeiro..After that Brazil started a long tradition in racing cars...Names as Fittipaldi, Ayrton Senna, Gil de Ferran, Tony Kanaan and many others are very popular in formula 1 and formula Indy...
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 width=600><TBODY><TR><TD width=279>Here some of the models wich took place in that race... Lorraine-Dietrich 80HP, Fiat 75 HP Fiat 50 HP, Berliet 60HP, Diato Clement 30HP, Fiat 40HP, Benz 40HP, Fiat 40HP, Berliet 22HP, Renault 14 HP, FN 14 HP </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Ricardo some great pics. I have a friend that bought a few old racers from South America (Paraguay and Uruguay). A lot of great racing heritage and a bunch of great cars as you listed. Hopefully you can continue to list or post some of the racers. I would be especially interested in any of the racers from the teens and twenties. I know they ran a number of modified "stock" cars but they also had their share of purposeful built racers, I would assume. Thanks for posts-Jim
Just stole this from the History of Los Angeles thread here on the HAMB, GREAT thread well worth a look. The Bothwell Peugeot in late 1940's INDY 500 trim.
The Jalopy Journal
