The pic above showing the star, thats the passenger side. The driver is opposite of that. The star on both sides is at the rear of the car, with the parking brake arm, which I think is correct.
Just going from memory, I think the blue bottom spring on the right is in the wrong hole, also something wrong with your adjuster cable, way to much slack in it. When the self adjuster is right you will get a loud click when you adjust the star wheel out. I also seem to remember most shoes used to have a short lining on the front shoe, and a long one on the back. Have you got a pair of short ones on the other side? Not that any of those thing would cause the problem you describe, but they do need to be addressed. I agree with some of the others, I think when you tighten them down, you are either rubbing on the backing plate or the shoes. Also agree that with front discs you should stop pretty fair even if the backs were not functioning. I would get a buddy to help pump the pedal, and do a good pressure bleed to start with, and then go from there.
i think you need a booster, i remember reading about disc brakes needing a lot of pressure then drum brakes. and make sure you get the proper size booster too.
Lots wrong with your brake assembly! 1. Adjuster cable must have NO slack in it. 2. The 'T' shaped washer behind the upper retraction springs (on the anchor pin) is upside-down. 3. Upper retraction spring tangs must be bent parallel to the spring shanks to prevent them from sliding off the anchor pin. 4. The lower retraction spring is incorrectly installed where it engages the primary shoe. BTW, what wheels and lug nuts are you running? The lug bolts look to have excessively long shoulders where they protrude from the axle flange. Is there a reason it is done this way? Are your parking brake cables hooked up to the main pull cable and correctly adjusted? How much oversize are your drums and were the new shoes contour arc ground to match the drum oversize? The rear hydraulic system needs to have a residual pressure valve and that should have been installed in the master cylinder. If your MC has one large and one small reservoir, the small reservoir is for the rear brakes. The residual valve is in that port - leave it there.
Good eye, Commish! Front shoe (primary) uses the short friction material, the rear shoe (secondary) uses the longer friction material. Better yet, get a knowledgeable mechanic to help you get it right. Yours and others lives are too valuable to take a chance on with guessing your way through brake jobs and steering repairs. Get this stuff right or don't bother driving it. I'm serious!
I have read a lot of good information here. But I have not seen the proper way to adjust manual brakes. Now being an Old Fart and having worked in Garages as well as on my own units for some 40 odd years. After you get the rear drum non spinning thing figured out. 1. Put the wheels on 2. Spin the wheel while turning the adjuster 3. Turn adjuster until wheel stops 4. Back adjuster off 7 clicks 5. Spin wheel - If it spins with a fair amount of scuff - Good 6. Follow same proceedure on other side. Now if all things are good you should have a good pedal. If you have to pump up the pedal you have air in the system. A disc / drum combo acts a bit different than a disc / disc system as in when you push the pedal fluid goes out to all wheels but will not really start to stop until the rears are in full contact with the drum then every thing starts to work together. Also I did not see any signs of drag on the drum as if the shoes were too wide. But maybe they are getting into the backing plate? Maybe put a bit of grease or clay on the lip of the drum and install the wheel and see if it leaves a contact mark on the backing plate? Hope this helps
take them apart and find somebody that can help you and teach you how to correctly assemble the brakes and explain the way they work. posting the pic's were made all the difference. keep your head up and learn. post before and after pic's together as it will surely help somebody down the road. i can say i have purchased a handfull of vehicles with "new brakes" installed. cool project!
man check youtube! they have a few videos on how to do and adjust your rear brakes! thats if you cant find anyone to help you that is.
Von Dyck knows what's up. Take that mess back apart, make it look like this, get the right drums if yours are too shallow for the shoes/backing plates, and drive away happy. It also looks like you have two same size linings on that side, there are short and long linings on the shoes, the long is the primary and goes on the back, the short secondary goes to the front. Mix these up and you'll have all kinds of fun shit going on. Don't forget to bed in the brakes with 20 stops from 30-40mph. -KK *Edit* The primary/secondary shoe thing was already pointed out, I just started typing when I saw that pic.
Be aware particularly on reman masters it's possible to get a bad one right out of the box. I had one that couldn't be bled out even after a bench bleed, had to exchange it. FWIW, I gravity bled my latest beater on the rear lines - they're pretty straightforward - and got a good pedal out of it. But it's a van, the master is a tad higher than most vehicles. It stops so good that the first couple stops will about throw you into the dash, but that's because somewhere the linings or shoes are cheap and either get damp or have contamination.
I've attached a link to a good picture of a backing plate that should be similar to what you have. http://image.mustangandfords.com/f/9282966/0704_mufp_16_z+brake_system+adjust_drum_brakes.jpg Also make sure that the equalizer bar is loose and not bound up. Usually a sticky e-brake cable is the culprit for that problem. Make sure that the shoes are against the anchor at the top. Look for grooves in the backing plate that the shoes may get hung up in. I would run grease pencil or heavy chalk on the sides of the shoes, put the drum on, tighten it, give the wheel a spin and take it apart to see what is hitting where. It may be a simple matter of a change to a slightly narrower brake shoe. Also chalk up the drum edge to see if its bottoming out on the backing plate. Bob
Thanks to all and you von for clearing some things wrong here. I will get them addressed. The adjust cable does have slack in it with the star adjuster all the way in, but as I turn it out, it tightens up..It should be tight ALL the time, regardless of star adjuster location? I have some aluminum wheels on there, 15's I bought moons ago. Standard (cant recall) ford lugnut size, cause I grab handfuls from the ground at pick n pulls from 80-90's ltd's and such and they fit. For the wheel studs I needed new ones, so I calipered the holes and got the correct knurl size required. I didnt know the correct/best shoulder length, but no I didnt use the shoulder length for a specific reason. I dont see that it would be a problem though, because when I put the drum on, then the wheel, there is no shoulder visible. Or do you think the shoulder is affecting the drum somehow? Praking brake cables are hooked up, not adjusted though and they do not lock the brakes when pulled right now, they barely move. The equalizer bars are not stuck, I can shift either one about a 1/4" without the ebrake pulled. When I pull the ebrake the bar is tight where I cant move it, let off ebrake, I can move it. It just doesnt spread the shoe enough to actually apply the brake right now. I am using a dual master, small/large reservoir and the small is going to the rear brakes. I had the wife apply the brakes last night and both shoes seem to move in and out very well (to me). On both sides of the car. So to me it seems like the brakes work, adjustment is not right, and the dragging I am having once the wheels are tightened down is the main problem to address. I think if I got rid of this wheel drag I could adjust the brakes and then final bleed and see where I am at. I just am LOST on what to do about this dragging/binding that occurs as soon as the lug nuts are tightened.
I will try this and see what happens. I just didnt know if you can use a narrower shoe on a wider drum. For instance my drum (in pic above) measures about 2 1/4" shoe surface. So can you run a 1 3/4 shoe, or must it stick with a 2"
You have to see what is producing the drag, either the drum is hitting the backing plate or the drums is contacting the shoes. If the chalk trick doesn't shed any light, take the brake shoes off and install the drum by itself, crank it down and see if you can turn it. I'd say for shoe width, it has to be less than the width of the drum surface, maybe by a 1/4" minimum. I've also seen plenty of wrong drums out of the box from good parts houses. One distinction was that station wagon drums would hit the backing plate on passenger cars. If you know exactly what the rear is out of, that's a good place to start. Bob
Just my $0.02, but I fought a similar "soft pedal" problem on my OT 1971 Plymouth Road Runner for YEARS before a buddy of mine finally figured it out. The car was a manual drum car and I converted it over to front disk brakes with a manual disk brake car's MC. (73 Dusters & Darts actually had MANUAL front disk brakes as an option). I bled them twenty times if I bled them once, took it to three different shops to have it power bled and they all threw up their hands and said "I dunno". New flex lines, new hard lines, new calipers, new wheel cylinders, double triple checked the factory service manual to see if I messed up the rear shoe installation & adjustment, etc. My friend borrowed the car and just for grins put a LONGER brake pushrod in and from then on, it stops like it is supposed to!!!! Yeah, it's a firm pedal and takes a good bit of effort, and maybe that's why Chrysler only offered manual disks for one year, but it stops now! As an aside, while I was troubleshooting my car I also "isolated" the front & back half of the car by putting a small "block off" disk that I made from a soda can in the port on the proportioning valve that feeds the rear brake line. At least you'll know if the problem is on the front or rear of the car. Cut it about the diameter of a pea (or a little smaller, you just want it to be a little bigger than the inside diameter of the brake line) remove the line and use the disk to block the fluid from going to the rear line. Just remember to take it out when you're done!
I will also give this a shot along with what drive em said, putting a couple of washers on each stud between the axle and drum. I dont know what exact car it came out of, but from all the research I am 99% sure its from a 57 ford. Its the round back with the drain plug, 57 1/4". I got NO brakes and backing plates with the rear, so thats why I am having all the trouble here. I bought these drums and loaded plates from a local guy that pulled these off his 9". I had him measure the axle offset and it matched mine, according to him. So i didnt see why these wouldnt work . Either way, he had no idea what the brakes/plates were off of, he put the 9" he had in a 68 camaro
the picture in the link bobss396 posted is great! pull everything off the backing plate except the wheel cylinders and start putting it back together and it will work fine. remember short shoe is primary, towards the front of vehicle. i was taught to install that shoe first and when i'm away from doing brakes i get rusty (real slow) but seem to hit it correct each time. i used to tape a copy rom the repair manual on the car for reference so try that as it helped me in the past. post a picture of everything assembled before you put drums on for the free double check.
Are you sure you got the prop/combination valve plumbed correctly??? I got the same set up as you on my 54 and had no problems. Used a 80 Granada master cylinder for non-power brakes
Ok all....I just went and pulled off everything, down to bare backing plates. Put the drums on, put the wheel on, tightened the lug nut down, same shit...its draggin. Must be the offset. The drums are rubbing on the inside where the backing plate hits. I can start to see the shiny metal inside the drum where the backing plate rides. Now what? Put the 8" rear back in. This is ridiculous
You have the wrong drums. Here's some filler information: The brake shoes have that central spine that the springs and hardware all mount to. That spine must be centered in the shoe, or the shoe would load up unevenly against the drum. So wider brakes that have to fit behind the same wheel have to have a different backing plate that mounts the whole assembly further inward. It looks from your pics like you have 2" shoes, but 2.5" drums. The backing plates are for the narrower shoes, so the drums hit the plates because they are not deep enough on the flange. Brakes came in 2", 2.25", and 2.5" typically, with the 2" and 2.5" being the most common. You probably need drums for the 2" shoes, but measure to make sure that's what you need to buy. -KK
Just for future ref. The 57 has two rear brake widths. The big bearing for the wagon and Ranchero has wider brakes in the rear.The 58-9 would be the same. Don't know about newer ones. Also ABS in Orange Ca sells a nice adjustable rod. You may have the wide brakes with the wrong backing plates. Sounds like you're getting there. Good Luck Ron Looks like I'm too slow
Ok, so how do you actually measure a drum? Do you measure the shoe surface or the overall depth? I measured the shoe surface and its 2 1/4". I am not sure if/how a 2 1/2" shoe would work in the drums I have? Now, either way though, dont the drums and backing plates need to match? Meaning if I go buy a set of 10x2 drums, would they work, or would they only work if they are the correct ones for those particular backing plates? So please tell me what you are referring to measure to be sure i get the right one. I know the shoes on there right now are 2" and the backing plates are for 10" drums.
Yes, the drums, backing plates, and shoes all need to match. the total machined surface inside the drum should be about 1/4" wider than the shoe friction surface, so your measurement sounds ballpark. 2.5" shoes would definitely not work. I'm not sure if certain cars had 1-3/4" drums or not, but I would measure the depth of the drum from the axle flange area to the point of contact at the backing plate, and then measure the same area on the axle flange and the backing plate lip to see how much interference you have. Is it tiny? Is it 1/4"? Also, make sure the backing plates are straight. As an example, if a rear end is dragged on the ground and the bottom of the plate catches something, it can be bent outward and cause the interference, as well as non-square contact between the shoes and drums. -KK
If it were me I would put a washer on each stud betwen the drum and flange , mount wheel and check for drag. If it still drags add a washer at a time untill it clears. That will give you the demension for the depth of drum you need. Again me , I would then put the drum on a lathe and remove some metal if it does not need much Oh like 3/16 or so. More than that ya most likely will need to change drums/backing plates. This is the kind of shit you get into playing mix and match.
I think you have covered most of the bases,but it looks like you still have air in the lines.Check out this picture it is a brake bleeder sold at Harbor Freight,my neighbor does brake work on the side and I have used it several times on drum brake cars and disc brake ABS cars and it is AWESOME and under $30 it hooks up to your shop compressor.It actually works so good that when I did my '54 I replaced all the lines,hoses and all 4 wheel cylinders and installed the new dual master,but it was a hot day and after a "few" PBR's I forgot to bench bleed the master.First I went to the pass side rear then the drivers side rear and WOW! no air,I went ahead and did the fronts anyway but in less than 15 minutes it was a done deal.
Ok I measured. I am cominig up with 3/16 to1/4 diff. That's was meausuring drum face where axle sits to the groove the backing plate rides in. Then I measured frim the front of the backing plate lip to the face of the axle.
Lay your drum down on the bench, measure the total depth of the drum with a scale. You will need something around 1/4" shallower. Take your drum to an auto parts house for comparison purposes and see how it matches up with other applications, such as a later 1960's Mustang, Torino or Cougar. I believe the V8 Mustang drums took 2" wide shoes, so you may have to get narrower shoes as well, or they could hang past the drum lip. Start by asking for a 10" x 2" drum, avoid the ones with the finned bell shape, those can interfere with a backing plate, I used to see it all the time when I was in the brake business. Can you post a picture of your brake drums? Bob
Ok, I also measured the total depth of the drum and it was about 4 1/8". I meant to take a pic of the drums and forgot. These ARE however finned drums that I am working with. This is NOT my drum, but a pic of what mine look like http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=299444
I agree. I ran into this when putting Buick drums on early Ford spindles and backing plates. (It has to be pretty close or you would have bent something on the test drive.) A little adjustment work on an Aamco brake lathe removed the edge that was contacting the backing plate and fixed the problem. The self adjuster cable length is determined by the diameter of the drum. Measure the drum diameter, take your old cable with you and check the length of the cable against the one for your diameter drum at a good parts store. The replacements are usually shrink wrapped on cardboard so you can check the length.
That's what I figured you had there. These can get you in trouble if you have a mix and match set up. Most of these were used on station wagons. I looked at the Rock Auto site, try this part number, Raybestos 2637. This is a 2" x 10" non-finned drum that fits lots of applications. Bob
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