History We ALL Love a DARE! PIX of TRULY Extinct Makes?

1914 Saxon roadster (Both photos are thanks to Royal Feltner,
enthusiast of Amesbury, Massachusetts)


1916 Saxon coupe

Saxon Motor Car Co. Detroit, MI; Ypsilanti, MI
1913-1923

In 1915 and '16, Saxon made a total of nearly 50,000 assembled cars and ran seventh or eighth in US auto prod. those two sales seasons! But practically nobody remembers Saxon.

They started in Detroit about 1913 and soon shifted prod to Yipsilanti. By the early '20s, they were struggling; they apparently tried for a '23 model but petered out for good during that year. Saxon used Continental engines almost exclusively, save for 112-inch-wb cars when they used Grey and Root & Van engines under 200 CID. Six-cylinder engines mostly came in the make's later years.

According to ConceptCarz, about 1912 Hugh Chalmers decided a small, quality car of reasonable cost would fly in the marketplace. With the Model-T already gaining momentum, this looked like a smart down-market move for Chalmers and fellow investors. The first Saxons were priced, then, like cyclecars. Saxon sales exploded, with some 3,000 sold the first full season, 1913.

To Saxon's credit, the make had sold well early on, though it used a novel rear-mounted transmission. And electric lights were optional in 1913! And self-starters soon followed. Because of its size, Saxon was successfully pushed as a car for women (well ahead of Ned Jordan!).

With sales booming in those pre-WWI years, it must have seemed truly as though the sky was the limit. BUT, AS WITH SO MANY MAKES, HEAD-SPINNING SUCCESS COULD QUICKLY TURN TO TURMOIL. How could Saxon officers have foreseen that a recession would gradually take hold after the war ended? Buying a bigger factory to keep pace with demand left little reserve cash in the company coffers. And what had seemed a wise move turned to a tragic misstep from which Saxon never recovered. Already losing money, Saxon struggled in the early 1920s, FINALLY throwing in the towel some time in '23.


As a side note: Saxon made a body style called a "Blackstone," which I'd love to know WHAT that is! Apparently it was small, like a coupe or roadster.

There is a Saxon registry, based in Oregon. Membership is limited to Saxon owners and former owners, so survival figures are tough to come by! And, since pix of Saxon cars from the final years are hard to find, it appears clear that sales and production declined severely, probably making these very rare today.


Saxon Roadster (1914), with sincere thanks to Cars
(members.chello.nl/j.baartse/cars/Cars_S.html)

 

This 1920 is thought to be the only '20 Carroll still in
existence. Though the company was in business for
a decade or so, little information seems to be available
about it. Carroll's were built in Strasburg, PA, between
1913 and 1922, then shifted ops to Lorraine, OH, closing
doors after 1922. With large four-cylinder engines and
long wheelbases usually, the Carroll roadsters and
tourers carried a steep pricetag, sometimes approach-
ing $4,000.


1920 Carroll touring car, thanks to Royal Feltner's great site,
EarlyAmericanAutomobiles.com.
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And HERE is a 1911 Carroll, featured WAAAAAY back on page UNO !!! (Note the white-rubber tires.)

 

Hi guys

I found this thread looking for information on the Herschell-Spillman V8 engine from around 1915-1921 or so. It's an excellent thread, and I hope I can add to it.

FWIW, it was a side valve engine and had a 90-degree V.

I am currently embarking on a mission to catalogue the specifications of every car ever made, a pretty mammoth task and a never-ending work-in-progress. The results so far can be seen at my site. A lot of the makes mentioned here have at least a few entries (Saxon, Scripps-Booth, Douglas), and where known I note the manufacturer of the engine in the specs too. I'll make that searchable too, give me a day or two for that though.

Thanks guys for a great thread so far, hope it keeps going

Cheers

Zak

 

Hi, Zak! Thanks for your input (and accolades!) on this thread! We've had fun. And -- NO -- we are not quitting any time soon, thanks to the HAMB! I am sure all the regulars respect and support the tough research job you describe. Best of luck on that worthy, if time-consuming, endeavor!!! And you'll find a bunch of posts on H-S, if you use the search bar at top of the page.

Funny that a company whose original purpose was NOT automotive should have its engines in SO many different makes in the early years. Including 4, 6 and V-8 mills, Herschell-Spillman (AKA just Spillman early on) supplied engines to some 40 makes.

Below is a list of makes that bought H-S (and other) V-8s as of the late-'20s or so. NOT sure if this is a complete list -- I suspect closer to 15 marques. Plus H-S V-8s were used in some trucks and tractors, too.

Early Makes With V-8 Engines

Abbott (Herschell-Spillman)
Apperson ??? ( Brand unknown,
but 331.8-CID * was a known H-S displacement)
Cadillac (Cadillac; Northway, a GM division)
Chevrolet
Cole (Northway)
Cord (Lycoming)
Cunningham (Own 441.8-CID))
Daniels (Herschell-Spillman)
Douglas (Herschell-Spillman)
Drummond (Herschell-Spillman)
Economy (Ferro)
Ford (Ford)
Hollier (Own)
Homer (and Laughlin) (Own 119-CID V-8?)
Jackson (Ferro)
King (King)
La Fayette (Own 348-CID)
Lincoln (Own)
Madison (Herschell-Spillman)
Monarch (Herschell-Spillman)
Murray (Herschell-Spillman)
Oakland (Northway)
Peerless (Herschell-Spillman)
Pilot (1916 only; brand unknown,
possibly H-S or Teetor-Hartley))
Regal (Port Huron 254-CID V-8)
Rock Falls (Herschell-Spillman)
Ross (Herschell-Spill man)
Scripps-Booth (Ferro)
Sheridan (Northway)
Standard (Herschell-Spillman)
Viking (Own)
Wills Saint Claire (Own)
Yale (??? Massnick-Phipps, Colonial or Perkins)


From HJ's Post #3087: "In 1916, following the lead of Cadillac, Peerless introduced a V8, a 331.8 cubic inch (*) side valve unit built by Herschell-Spillman. It would remain the only powerplant until a lower-priced Model 6-70 was introduced in 1925.. . . . . The Herschell-Spillman V8 runs well &#8211; it is the third generation of this design and the most refined. It features a Ball and Ball carburetor, which is said to be the first progressive four-barrel type in the industry."

 

I have had NO luck finding a real photo of a 1915 to 1917 WACO (or Waco) automobile! So, HELP!

WACO (not to be confused with the airplane manufacturer) was an acronym for the maker, the Washington Automobile Company, Seattle. they only made roadsters and tourers, powered by Golden-Belnap-Swartz 23-horse fours from Detroit. Though on fairly long 112-inch wheelbase, these "regional" cars were priced under a thousand dollars. Construction was fairly conventional (they remind me of the Climber), and they had full, contemporary gauges and electricals.

For the life of me, I can't understand why this make went out of business -- unless, maybe, they were under-capitalized, got hit by a strike or the materials shortages of WWI???

Though Clymer's book also attests that the WACOs existed, no one seems to have held onto one! THANKS to AmericanAutomobiles.com, there's this extant poster that gives a glimmer how the cars looked.

If ANYBODY can find evidence of a WACO survivor -- or a better pic of one! -- that would be great. And AmericanAutomobiles.com has been searching too, so they'd be happy to get such a photo!



1917 WACO, thanks to AmericanAutomobiles.com

 

I beleive that's the Western Automobile Co., not Washington.
could cause a problem with the search.
Found that mention here:
www.lemaymuseum.org/file_viewer.php?id=703&dt=ppt

 

Yup, YOU ARE RIGHT to correct that quickly, SWI. THANKS. Washington State, YES, folks.

But the WACO acronym is from WESTERN Automobile Company -- not Washington. Location is correct: Seattle, WA.

HOWEVER, I'd tried to get some info from the LeMay Museum site and found it VERY hard to navigate. So. I'm glad you got something, since I could not.

 

Well, same results. SWI, did you find out if, maybe, the LeMay HAS a WACO in residence there? It was, after all, a Seattle-made car.

 

2 more 8 cylinder cars:
RiChard - Own 600 cu in V8
Vernon - Own 173 cu in V(?) 8

Oh, and the Apperson had their own V8 engines.

Ciao

Zak

 

The link I sent you was to a historical PDF on vehicles made in Washington. No indication they have one, but I wonder if they have more info in their archives.........

 

Zak, thanks for the two additional early V-8s.

I have been growing more and more skeptical of companies that stated that the engines in their cars were their OWN -- hinting that they designed, cast and machined their OWN engines, rather than buying them from another source.

And that is exactly why I noted that the Apperson 331.8-CID V-8 is precisely of the SAME displacement as the Herschell-Spillman. If the bore and stroke turn out exactly the same, that would remove any doubt -- at least for me.

We had a similar situation with the "Peerless" V-8, too, and that was just discussed a couple of pages back. And Graham's excellent engineers reworked the top end of Continentals in the '30s (later adding superchargers, as well). But to the PUBLIC, they were "Graham" engines. The early Kaiser-Frazer engines were actually a Continental, and the Hurricane was actually a Willys engine.

I think you see what I'm getting at.

 

I understand your viewpoint, but feel I need to point out that when dealing in inches and fractions thereof, the chances of engineers coming up with the same bore and stroke (and hence displacement for the same number of cylinders) are pretty good. Cylinder dimensions are also but one part of the jigsaw, I think photographic evidence or personal inspection of the powerplants is the only way to be sure.

I prefer to give the makers' enough credit to accept their claims at face value, barring actual evidence to the contrary.

 

Hi, Zak. We may never agree on the 331.8, but we can agree to disagree and still be friends! LOL.

Please read Posts 3086 and 3087. Seems pretty clear that Peerless either started out with a Herschell-Spillman 331.8 V-8, then improved it for two more generations OR they collaborated with Herschell-Spillman in the first place (since the companies weren't far apart, not hard to imagine). That's one example.

I didn't question anyone's word. I'm just saying that when a company purchases license to use an engine, they don't always credit the maker in their publicity.

Lastly, Abbott, Apperson, Daniels, Murray, Peerless, Ross and Standard ALL used a V-8 engine of exactly 331.8-CID (and 3.25" X 5") in some of their models. Some credited Herschell-Spillman, some did not, claiming "OWN." I'll leave it to anyone looking at these figures to decide the likelihood of SEVEN different groups of engineers coming up separately with engines with all specs matching like this. I just can't suspend disbelief to that extent.

 

Hey, SunRoof Jimmy. A guy asked on the Packard V-12 thread about the mega-awesome Packard CUSTOMIZED coupe at the Detroit Auto Show. BUT, I couldn't find your pix of it.

Did the guy win-place-show in his category? Can clue me how to link to the pix? Sorry to impose, buddy!!! -- Jimi

 

I found this interesting, in terms of how "easily" leftover cars could sometimes just become a whole different make! Makes a statement about how certain things were DIFFERENT in the early days of motoring!



Posted on AACA by Flyer owner/restorer "OldCar" of suburban Melbourne

NOTE: The Dixie Wagon Co. early on built bodies for the Hercules, made in Ohio. When the former fell on hard times, Dixe bought them out and, basically, turned the Hercules into the "new" Dixie Flyer. Maybe fittingly, Dixie Flyer endured the same fate later, being bought out by National. It is believed that some of the LAST Flyers were turned into Nations by swapping badging and hubcaps.

 

This Lemay collection is huge!

I have not seen a listing yet, but over 2200 vehicles rotated in and out of the display!

 

SWI, man, I'd surely love to see that list of 2,200 oldes, if it exists. Does the LeMay actually have that many cars stored away? The list I saw on their site only voered 40-50 cars.


Check out these mean pipes! I ran across this pic on AmericanCars.com, ID'd only as you see. I think it's an Abbott, judging from the pointed grille shell. Anybody know for sure?

<CENTER>
1920s Race Car </CENTER>

 

Okay, the plot thickens here, folks! On AmericanCars.com, THIS one (similar but not identical to the previous car) IS ID'd as a 1920 Abbott. (Note there were no Abbotts after 1918.) It does have disc wheels, suggesting early '20s, BUT I'm wondering if those couldn't have been fitted later.

Further, this car shows THREE pipes out the side, suggesting that, MAYBE, there are three more on the other side. If so (and we're getting speculative here!), then this may be a 1916 Abbott, made in Cleveland after the factory moved from Detroit and the cars were only called Abbott, no longer Abbott-Detroit. Apparently in 1916 ONLY, Abbott offered the Herschell-Spillman 331.8-CID V-8, said to have ridden on a 121-inch wheelbase.

I could be wrong, BUT I think we may have a match on a VERY rare (EXTINCT?) car!!! Thoughts out there in HAMBland?


?????

 

Yes, it is an Abbott.

Researching Abbott, I was led to Shorpy which identifies the dapper guy behind the wheel of the speedster, though not the exact year. He is Eddie Voight, Jr., of Washington, D.C. The son of a jeweler, Voight once had a career as a successful banker and a big house with a swimming pool in the basement. Shorpy contributors filled in that Voight was actually involved in racing cars, even piloting his own (this one? who knows). This story has the ring of 1920s "success and excess", doesn't it?

His wife divorced him in 1928, and he finally went bankrupt with a debt of $45,000. Was this another '20s life symptom? Don't know, folks! But fortunes steadily declined for Voight who moved back in with his mom, then lived out the final four years of his life alone and in poverty. Voight's body was discovered by his landlord in 1959 a month after he actually died in seclusion. He was buried for $200 by the welfare department.

 

Very nice, that Abbott. Good find!

Found these tables today. I am determined to get to the bottom of the H-S/Apperson debate (the first of many, I'm sure!) so thought we could comment on these.


and



Thoughts?

 

Zak, you found some great stuff there! I am impressed to hear that the H-S V-8 was force-fed instead of splash type.

I am ALSO fascinated by the Ri-Chard. What a GUY! And what a motor he wound up designing for his swan song! 600-CID and 250-hp. Wow. I wonder what the man did after he stopped pursuing auto-making in Cleveland. I love the HUMAN stories behind the cars!

Thanks for the input, and we hope to see you back -- any time!

 

Here's some stuff for you, Jimi:

 

The Grout Brothers Automobile Company​

Orange, Mass.

​

The Grout Brothers made their first motor vehicle in 1896, a heavy motor wagon weighing 3,000 pounds, seating two people, and powered by a 2-cycle, water-cooled gasoline engine consisting of two opposed cylinders 6 x 7½ inches. “The drive was belts first and V-grooved friction wheels afterwards. The motor was abundantly powerful, but the transmission was poor and their great weight of the cars was against them.” They sold about a dozen of these vehicles in 1897, 1898, and 1899.


In 1899, the Grout Brothers “began on steam cars and sold their first steam car in 1900.” Grout Brothers sold their steamers through 1906, but were continuing to develop a gasoline engine car, producing several models, “one at a time, no two alike.”

In 1904 Grout Brothers decided to abandon steam cars and move to gasoline engines only. They apparently offered gasoline and steam cars in 1905 and 1906 before going completely to gasoline cars in 1907.[1]

[1] Dolnar, Hugh, “The Grout Brothers 1907 Touring Car,” Cycle and Automobile Trade Journal, (1907, p. 110).

​

This small advertisement appeared in the Scientific American of May 17, 1902, Vol. LXXXVI, No. 20, page 358.

​

​

This advertisement exists as two
separate sheets. I thought it was a postcard, but it is not. The paper is very thin and appears to be a copy of an original card. It may have been an advertisement designed to be mailed.

​

​

This Grout Bros advertising cover and letter included a contract with Mr. Chas. H. Walker of Chester, Vermont to sell Grout Steam Cars. It is dated March 14, 1903 and was mailed on March 16, 1903.

​

​

​

​

Grout Steamer advertisement from The National Magazine, May and June 1905, no page numbers.

​

​

Grout Steamer advertisement dated 1905, no source. Solar Motor Lamp advertisement on the reverse.

​

​

Grout Steamer article from Cycle & Automobile magazine, January 1, 1907, p. 110.

​

​

The Grout Bros Automobile Factory. This postcard is postmarked Orange, Mass, December 17, 1908. The car appears to be Grout's
gasoline version.

​

​

Grout 1899 – 1912

1.Grout Bros., Orange, MA 1899 – 1903

2.Grout Bros. Automobile Co., Orange, MA 1903 – 1908

3.Grout Automobile Co., Orange, MA 1908 – 1912

The Grout company began manufacture with a typical light steam buggy with a 2-cylinder 4 hp engine and single chain drive. An unusual model was the New Home Coupe, a completely enclosed coupe on a very short wheel base, which looked like a mobile sentry box. From about 1903 the steamers began to look more like ordinary cars, although the hood was circular and had a single headlight mounted in the center, locomotive style. One model continued the locomotive appearance with an enormous cow catcher to ask as a bumper.

The last steamer, a 12 hp 2-cylinder model, appeared in 1905, and a year earlier the company had introduced a gasoline-engined car with a 30 hp 4-cylinder engine and shaft drive. Few of these were made as the company was often in financial difficulties from 1905 onwards.[1]

[1] Georgano, G. N., Encyclopedia of American Automobile, (New York, E. P. Dutton & Co., 1968), p. 92.

Thanks to the Virtual Steam Car Museum for the above information
​

 

Speaking of Herschell-Spillman-powered vehicles, HERE is a special car, AND an owner who defies description for dedication, determination and sheer love of old cars. AACA member Bernie J (OldCar) of Melbourne, Australia, has been working on the Dixie Flyer "Firefly" since at least 2008, and it has been the subject of a long, well-watched thread over there. Deservedly so, too! Bernie's efforts have been carefully detailed, and AACA members have been extremely supportive. It is my understanding that Bernie plans to ship the car to the U.S. for a major summertime show in Louisville where the Firefly was built nearly a century ago! Bernie's car seems to bring the total number of known Dixie Flyers to three running specimens: one in Melbourne, one in Texas and one in Iceland (!).

Again, quite a tribute to Bernie, the AACA members and forums, and to the artisans and technicians he called upon to help with this Herculean task -- even if it was, obviously, a labor of love!



Seems nearly incomprehensible Bernie started out with the Flyer -- at death's door!



And, NOW! Bernie just posted this nighttime photo a couple of days ago
for his fellow AACA members' gratification. Way to go, Bernie!



An intermediate-project shot, before interior is finished. Shows the Herschell-Spillman engine pretty well.

 

I know this isn't really on subject, but I ran across this yesterday at a small show and loved it!

a 1964 Lennox Kitty Track.
Only made a couple years.
Could be a mower, or mini dozer or snowplow

 

SunRoofCord: Wow, man, the Grout has to be almost non-existent! And ESPECIALLY those last few years of GAS-powered cars!

I wonder if ANYBODY in HAMBland can find a pic of one in a museum or private hands????

 

I do have the specs for one Grout model posted:
http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=206668

Coincidentally added towards the end of last year.

 

Here's an odd combination. Only marketed in 1909-11, the Black Crow was a re-badged Crow-Elkhart, made in Elkhart, IN, but sold with the new name by the Black auto company of Chicago. This is according to Wikipedia, and the photo comes from WikiMedia Commons project -- to whom appreciation is gratefully expressed.

 

1911 Abbott-Detroit, thanks to the WikiMedia Commons project! Shows that Abbott was into SPEED from early on!


1912 Abbott-Detroit, thanks to Royal Feltner of Amesbury, MA.


Since I showed Eddie Voight in what seems to be his fly later-model Abbott speedster a few days ago, I thought it appropriate to show a couple of earlier models for COMPARISON's sake. Abbott-Detroit (aka Abbott) was only around from 1909 to 1915 (some sources say 1918). These pix definitely show that Abbotts changed DRAMATICALLY during their short run! Moving to a larger factory in Cleveland, from Detroit for their final two years put Abbott into a financial bind from which they could not recover. Unfortunate, since the brand was well regarded!


Eddie at the wheel

 

1903 Grout – Assembly Plant Found?

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By now, subscribers of our storied Hemmings Motor News title should have their copy of the June issue, which includes a feature – of sorts – on a 1903 Grout Model J found for sale at Hershey (see Car Corral, page 16). Before composing the brief story, I dug deep into my private archives to see what I could learn about the vehicle itself, rather than the company (1900-1912), which was based in Orange, Massachusetts. I got lucky and found more than space would allow.
Among the numerous Floyd Clymer motor scrapbooks that have been printed was one edition devoted entirely to steam powered vehicles (Steam Car Edition Vol. 1) – no less than six pages were listed as containing Grout material within the index, including two different ads for the 1903 Model J. Seen in the images provided, one is clearly equipped with wire wheels, the other with wooden wheels. Clymer’s book also contained a page from a 1903 edition of the Cycle and Automobile Trade Journal that listed the specifics for said car:
For two or four passengers; drop front seat; front seat 12 inches below main seat; height, 5-feet 4 inches; width, 5-feet 2 inches; length, 11-feet 2 inches; wheelbase, 72 inches; 30-inch wood or wire wheels; 3-inch detachable tires; 7hp boiler; fuel tank, 50 miles capacity; water tank, 35 miles capacity; condenser if desired; steam air pump; forced draft; price, $1,200.
Additionally:
On Grout Steam cars, 6 1/2 and 10hp engines are used, capable of developing as high as 10 to 20hp; they have double cylinders, slide D valves, Stephenson link motion, either horizontal or vertical; eccentric consists of only one piece, combining 13 pieces generally used; all parts interchangeable; burner started with a match in 3 to 5 minutes; everything controlled from the seat; either kerosene or gasoline burner is furnished.
If you look close at the 1903 ads, little information is included as to the exact location of the Orange assembly plant and/or offices. That was provided by ads that appeared in 1905, which also included three other east coast “branch” offices.
Grout Brothers Automobile Company was located at 285 East Main Street, and by the looks of it, the original building still exists. Current maps show a rail line behind the complex, so it’s quite possible that there was a means at their disposal for circulating their vehicles outside of the immediate area. In 1905, the Boston branch was located at 151-153 Columbus Avenue – warning: type in the address and Street View dumps you on the Mass Pike – while the New York City office was at 308-310 West 59th Street. Finally, there was a location listed in Washington, D.C. at 1310 Staunton Court – the proprietor’s name (we’re assuming) was Clarence Pittman. This last address is coming up as a blank in the D.C. area.
Grout, as an automobile, was no slouch. According to published results of the 1905 Worcester Hill climbing Contest, Mr. George C. Cannon raced his special-ordered/prepared 50hp Grout steamer to a third place finish in the class for cars weighing from 1,423 to 2,204 pounds with a time of 1:23, and later to a second place run with a time of 1:21 in the Free For All event.
I’ve seen only one other ‘03 Model J in my lifetime, and that was a number of years ago at a steam power show in Rhode Island. But what amazed me was that a second Grout – a 1904 two-passenger model – was also for sale at Hershey. How many other Grouts – steam or conventional power – remain is anyone’s guess. Have you seen any?