New oil eating old engines

i liked being reminded of this important topic, it is causing me to review our oil selection again, we had switch shell rotella for all engines, (including lift trucks, generators, gas powered welders, specilized mobile equipment). we use about 100 gal of oil per year.

i like the brad penn oil website and the fact it is local made with even usa crude oil. the accc web site on oil was very good a little dated (18 months old) but lots of good information

 

Nothing personal here, but Rotella isn't a very high quality oil... and I'd much rather support an American company such as BradPenn (30 mi from my place), Valvoline, Schaeffers, or Lubrication Engineers. Schaeffer's base stocks are shipped from the BradPenn refinery (the old Kendall refinery)

Shell, Pennzoil (4 generations of my family worked for SouthPenn/Pennzoil), Kendall, Conoco, Mobil, Quaker State, Texaco/Havoline are all foreign companies now...

As for using diesel oil in a gas engine... why? The only 'benefit' I could maybe see is the extra detergent, but that would only help if you had a dirty engine. Diesels, contrary to popular opinion, don't see extreme duty and a hellfire-and-brimstone environment. Bearings are large, rpms are low, valvespring pressures are ridiculously low, and the quantity of oil in the engine is high. I wouldn't recommend using the stuff in a street engine. Doesn't it seem kinda strange that hi-performance diesel oils are more like gas engine oils, and not the other way around?

 

Alittle off topic, but I always drill and insert a magnet in all my drain pan plugs. Helps to keep an eye out for floating metal debris between fluid changes.

 

I'm sure at one time or another, most topics have been covered. Some of us just prefer to interact with other members in the here and now. Its people that make this board, not gigabytes of archives. (Yes they are still a great resource,)

 

I would have to disagree with this point. MANY of the OLD threads are several hundred posts long. Much of the useful info gets lost in the childish arguments and the endless "do a search, this has been covered before" posts. If an old thread like this were to get resurrected, I suspect that as soon as someone adds a useful contribution, some knob with WAY too much time on their hands will reply with, "check post #549, that was already covered". Most of us don't have the time to start on an old 900 post thread and sift through it to find the 10 informative posts. JMO

 

Not sure were you live but, here on earth, diesels are used in more than just VW Jetta's.

 

& you are guily of repeat whining about a repost

 

This horse has been beaten to a pulp for many years.

 

I live in western PA, and drive a truck for a living. As a matter of fact, I also haul petroleum products with that truck, and get to spend time with lab rats and petroleum engineers as an added bonus. Oh yeah, my daily driver is also a diesel. If the diesel environment is so wicked, how do the engines last a million miles between rebuilds?

 

well thats just great, you guys say use diesels oils , and now you say dont, i guess i will run it to it blowes, does anybody know??????

 

Old Rotella was good............now it isn't..........they took some or all the zink out with the Rotella on the store shelves NOW.

STP blue and red has enough zink in it for 5 qts. of non-zink oil, according to the Email answer I got from them, although the amount of zink is a trade secret.

www.stp.com

 

wisconsin hot rod radio guys interviewed Richard Clark, the guy who invented zdd plus additive. you can hear what he says about all this if you go to www.wisonsinhotrodradio.com and go to past shows. richard clark's interview is very informative and was interviewed on october 13, 2007. there are a couple shows on that site that talk about this problem. but richard clark is the expert. check it out.

 

On the subject of lack of zddp in todays oils.

Before they started to back it out oil had 1,800 ppm of zddp....which is a big long chemical word.

Like everything else we have seen over the years the ppm has gradually been decreased and yes until a year or so ago articles recommend rotella or other diesel oils....which by the way is not the real answer as diesel oils have stuff for soot control not recommended for car usage.

Also the new diesel oils now lack enough ppm of zddp...

While many solutions exist, if you want to continue to use the current oil either conventional or synthetic the best solution is to add the 4 ounce bottle of ZDDPlus which is carried by one of your vendors shown in post #3.

This product I know for a FACT is carried by Crower, Isky and Erson cams 3 well known long time cam companies. Also Delta cam out of Washington state. Matter of fact, Crower now puts the paste with their product. (Note Erson is under a private label)

If you got a flat tappet set up your engine whether you believe it or not needs zddp....period.
More so if you have a high performance engine....remember wear translates into metal shavings going somewhere in your oil....proof even exists it helps in roller rocker set up engines as well the scuffing issues....

Here is an interesting FACT

MY BUDDY had a Chevy dealership save the initial oil from a 2008 Corvette ZO6....came in for its first oil change with about 1,200 miles on it...that inital oil CONTAINED 3,000 PPM of zddp the new Mobil one that the Vette calls for only has 600-800 ppm...

If you think about it if Isky and Crower buy it they must know something as both of those companies not only cater to your market but have been in business well over 50 years....also it is used and the spokesperson is Don Garlits who is well known as being a hands on mechanic and top fuel drag racer for 50 plus years.

end of story

denniskirban@yahoo.com

In a nutshell one bottle of zddplus treats 4-6 qt of current sm oil bringing it back to 1800 ppm...it is the simplest solution that allows you to continue to use your favorite oil with no worries...period.

 

This is true Richard Clark a long time personal friend of mine is behind the product interesting enough among the companies he owns is a DNA LAB one of just 13 forensic labs privately owned. So, if you think about it, if you own a dna lab you certainily understand the importance of quality control!

Richard Clark also owns the largest Grand National/GNX car collection in the world. In my world (Turbo Buicks) he is very very well known and I work closely with him for several years. The man has done his homework!

I been told a segment on speed vision showed an engine rebuilder using the product along with a Crower cam.

denniskirban@yahoo.com

 

So, getting back to the original post - I thought the ZDDP issue was only when breaking in a new motor, and once it has some wear on it the lack of zinc isn't a problem, but the damage in OP's vehicle would seem to indicate otherwise.

Is there a definitive answer with regard to whether all older engines require an additive or oil already containing enough ppm, at every oil change? (I suspect it may vary to some degree with the motor type).

Or should I just go search myself for the answer? ... I bag on people for bringing up stupid threads, like asking if they can buy something or offering more advice on a problem someone solved five years ago, but stuff like this can never be brought up too often.

 

I like to clear something else up that adds to the confusion on the subject at hand.

Some oil companies now tout they got additional zinc....

The problem with that is, it is not just zinc but a combination of the molecule zddp that is needed and was in the oil in the proper ppm back under the SF category way back in 1988.

For gas vehicles S then the letter for diesel its C and then the letter. These codes are kinda like a date code you see on products..

Until recently oil was always supposed to be backwards compatible....and it was but the thinking is flat tappet engines have bee gone from production for dozen years or longer. When SM oil was released that is when the ppm of zddp really dropped and has become more of an issue with older engines. Who knows what the next round will have for ppm of zddp. Its all connected to the EPA.....

I am speaking in general terms here.

Grand Mom driving her 3.8 Regal to Church on sunday may never recognize any issue..

You on the other hand with your performance Chevy-Ford-Hemi whatever will notice the difference as some of the lifter faces start to wear....

Few years back the issue was thought to be at break in only....not the case also it was blamed on Chinese or poor quality lifters as no one ever suspected something so simple as engine oil.

The issue is real as you can read alot on the subject on various forums on the internet....the solutions are also many.

denniskirban@yahoo.com

 

To answer the question to be sure your engine is fully protected whether you hunt down any special oil that was mentioned in this thread or simply use a product like zddplus with any currently available conventional or synthetic oil you need to do it every time you change your oil....it is not I repeat not an issue simply related to break in.

Prior to the current SM oil the oil prior to his was still around 1200 ppm so problems where not as well known. When the sm oil was released it dropped the ppm down to 600-800.

Adding to the issues is during your first 1,000 miles of driving zddp depletes at a faster rate.

Remember the government is not keen on keeping old cars on the road today.
Racing oil is not the solution for every day d riving nor is diesel oils.

Ask any engine rebuilder some of them today refuse to rebuild a flat tappet engine because they have no idea what oil the customer will use and certianily can't stand behind it for the warranty.

ZDDPlus saved Dove Engineering on the engine challenge contest...Dove makes roller lifters and recommends this product. They use it in their engines...

Ask any engine rebuilder the importance of zddp....

They will tell you....same product is carried by:

Eastwood
Mac Antiques
Bill Hirsch
Chev of the 40s

Sure most of you have dealt with some of these companies at some point.

Clarks Corvair
Two of the largest Studebaker companies

 

Brad Penn etc are $10 a quart. ZDDP is $10 a bottle and treats your 5-6 qt crankcase. That is cheap insurance for every flat tappet engine. I've used it for years in everything from a vintage British motorcycle to my Cadillac V8's. I've found no reason to not use it.

 

I put a LOT of trust in what Joe Abbin says. For those that don't know, he's quite the egg head when it comes to blown flathead engines. Also, being an engineer, he tests, dyno's and has real long term proof that what he says works. To quote a little snippet from his page,

"allowable amount of zinc in most oils was reduced to 870 ppm in 2005, even though many experts feel that the optimum level of ZDDP for wear protection is 1200-1400 ppm."

"Thus at this time, I recommend racing oils such as Valvoline VR-1 for most flathead applications. At temperatures above freezing, SAE 20W50 meets the requirements of all flathead Fords, stock or modified."


I use Mobil 1 in my rollered daily driver. I use Mobil 1 4T motorcycle oil for my bike. I use Valvoline VR-1 for my non-roller flathead and when I finally finish my new flathead, it's getting Mobil 1 bike oil, just like my bike.

Mobil 1 4T has ~1700 ppm which is plenty. Anything less than 1000 ppm is going to cause problems. Any more than ~2000 ppm will foul plugs. I don't know how much zddp plus adds to my oil mix so I will be much more comfortable knowing that the oil off the shelf was mixed a little more precisely than I can do in my garage.

Amsoil is tough to beat, but I don't want to hassle with being a dealer. I have too much crap to keep track of as it is. The first link has enough to convince me it would be the best, but it's not readily available if I am driving across the country and need an oil change or need to top off. Easier for me to stick with what I got or can pick up at the local parts store.

Some links
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf Wear comparisons, zinc content.
http://www.moddedraptor.com/communi...62-mobil-one-racing-4t-used-oil-analysis.html what it says.
http://www.roadrunnerengineering.com/tech tips.htm Bottom of the page, his take on oils.

 

You obviously haven't read the old threads, and that's very obvious in your ignorance of them and what is in them and the way the discussions went down. Thanks for being another lazy newbie. Not.

And you're gulty of being just another whining newb. Thanks.

Yep, and for those that haven't read the beatings, there were even discussions of the actual spec and what to look for, but then someone said it in this thread, it's about the "here and now" and not what's in the "archives", pretty much the opposite is true. It's all about the history, and if you don't pay attention you are doomed to repeat it.

 

Is there a specific reasoning in looking at a repeated thread subject and thinking "here we go again..." and then deciding to read it and post in it complaining about how it was covered before?

 

Yes there is. It's hoped that maybe one day someone will actually take the time to do a search, find a good thread and bump it to the top with a useful comment. A lot of it comes from the fact that Ryan pays for the bandwidth and infrastructure and for years we have been doing a lot to try and help with it. One of the ways was auctions to support the HAMB or now you can join the Alliance. But some people just don't get it or think that they shouldn't have to worry about it. It also helps keep the relative information to a a few threads instead of many. And it's good internet etiquette.

 

I think the "specific reason" for posting "here we go again" posts is simply to increase post count without adding anything of value. The "saving bandwidth" argument doesn't wash. In this thread alone, zman has posted 5 times (so far) , almost 10% of the total posts and has added nothing to the discussion and by bringing up the perpetual 'do a search, this has been covered before', has elicited another 13 responses including this one for a total of 18 posts or over 35% of the total thread that add nothing to the subject at hand. If THAT aint a waste of bandwidth, I don't know what is.

 

At least I'm an Alliance member and have done auctions to support the site. I am supporting the site instead of just being a leach. Maybe you should step up instead of running your mouth. Join the Alliance.


http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185886

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=343217

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=138386

 

Zman what is your deal? This post somehow morphed into what type of oil people use, my post was for a procedure I used to try and save an engine that was in a car without a tear down. I did a search before I posted this and there was no other related article posted. If anything you are a jackass for continuing the highjack of my post. Your &#8220;related articles&#8221; are on oil supplements not alternative methods to save an engine after the damage was done. So maybe you should read what I originally posted before you shoot your month off. Let it go and get a life, please. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

 

wah wah, I just put a couple to show that what everyone was talking about has indeed been covered, if you dig back you can even find where it has been discussed if an engine can be saved, everyone seemed to agree it was a roll of the dice and without pulling the pan even more of a chance. But then I guess we wouldn't have gotten to see you cry about it.

 

I've had good luck with Wesson oil. But I don't use that Canola oil crap they say its bad for your heart.

 

This can't be repeated often enough. I've fixed engines with wiped cams caused by this problem, and there are tons of members here and elsewhere that have still not heard that if you do an oil change on your '65 Mustang with the oil you've always used, you could well destroy the 289 and really ruin your whole week. It's extremely important to old car people.

Don't like that the subject keeps coming up? Close the thread and open another one. See how easy that was?

-KK

 

I agree 100% with this, its important to also realize that several new solutions have come up since whenever the thread first appeared on the subject. Engine rebuilders were the first to discover it way before the public was aware of any oil issues.

Originally magazine articles said to use Rotella oil.....now we know that is not the solution.

The problem is real.....

denniskirban@yahoo.com

 

I still don't understand the need for beating people down for a new thread on this subject. It's not like it's the 1000th thread on what's traditional, why "rat rod" is bad, if black paint and red wheels is cool, or whatever. I actually learned something from this one - until now I'd assumed the zddp was only an issue for breaking in engines. Apparently it's not.