I know that it is old tech but I would think a good engine to take a look at to study what they did is a Hudson Hornet. They did incredibly well in racing and I might be interesting to look at their heads and ports. They were on of the last efforts at making a flathead fast so there maybe something to learn from them. From what little I looked I did find that the max compression ratio they used was 7.5:1 might be worth a look at? The one in the photo is modified to take an extra carb.
anyone here know about rejetting 97's ? please pm or email me ......... thank you .. steve kzsteve@yahoo.com
In late 1955 I was in the service keeping you all safe from communism I hitched a ride home with a guy that owned a hudson Hornet, dual carbs hi compression head. The Power-Pack 56 Chevy's had just come out and one passed us, we were going about 80, and the race was on. Actually it wasn't a race as the guy in the Hudson just played with the chevy until the guy waved us on. Not sure but I think the Hudson was a 53. A old friend of my boss was Lyle Knudson who made a lot of different flat heads and manifolds. Engines such as the Ford 6, Studebaker, Packard, Willy's and others. I knew an old engineer that told me the Hudson was popular at Indy in the Junk class.
I agree, they did a remarkable job. The Hudson used 'canted' valves similar to flatty V8. They are close to the cylinder (maybe too close, they can crack there). As I recommended earlier, read everthing you can posted by Hudsonator, here, Inliners & Old Skool Rods. His knowlege is worth absorbing.
Some info from: http://www.legendsofnascar.com/Hudson.htm Worth a look. <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cjon106%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} p {mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0cm; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} span.indent {mso-style-name:indent;} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Cylinder head selection includes (from bottom) factory Hudson cast iron, factory aluminum high compression, aluminum Clifford Performance (you can buy one today) and 50's vintage Edmunds finned unit. <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cjon106%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="2" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="2" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} span.indent {mso-style-name:indent;} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->Comparison of stock <st1:city w:st="on"><st1>Hudson</st1></st1:city> iron head in foreground and aluminum Clifford casting shows smaller combustion chamber and centered spark plug location for increased compression and better flame propagation. The iron head chambes look alot like the H-D KR heads but with the plug over the exhaust valve. <o></o> The pocket over the exhaust looks to be pretty 'tight' . Firing the plug here could allow this area to burn first (pre-combustion chamber) with the burning gasses expanding into, stirring up & igniting the main combustion area. More complete effect than the other way?? Hudson were obviously doing something right, I wonder if there ign. advance was a little greater than the usual flat-head?
Great idea Herb, I've not heard of that before. We could take it one step further and develop a cam and/or lifter profile that would allow the lifters to be rotated (manually or by engine load or rpm, but not electronically) giving constant variable valve timing. (CVVT) A Banger for the 21st century!
Steve, Maybe if you post what you are trying to do, you might get some help. If you are just looking for info on how to change them, then you will need a special jet wrench. There are two of them and they are under the outer most slotted plugs located under the float bowl. Other then that you have not given us any information on what you are trying to accomplish. .
ok , my mistake . thank you . i am running dual 97's on a zepher manifold , on my 4 banger . stock jets & p/v . runs rich at low speeds . motor is warmed up , hc head , b grind cam , etc. will jetting the main jets down help my bottom & not hurt my top ?? sorry for confusion & thank you for bringing it to my attention .. steve
Changing the jets will lean out the entire RPM range. Have you done a "high speed" plug chop to make sure you are running lean on the top end? Is it "black stacking" at low speed? In other words, does it spew black smoke at low rpm? Do you have the dual position throttle shafts with the summer and winter pins for the accelerator pump shaft? If so, try setting them on the summer setting (inside pin). That will change the rate that the accelerator pump supplies fuel. Also try running some hotter plugs. What distributor are you using? does it have centrifugal advanced? If the distributor is not supplying enough advance at low speed, you might see the same issue you are dealing with. .
I also get some black on the plug mostly on the one closest to the fire wall, running a stromberg 97 ( 2009 one ) 5.5 head mild cam, scalded dog header, had major issues with carb icing, fixed it with a new heat set-up check out my post on it.
Try plugging the power valves. They may be opening on the lower manifold vacum due th the two carbs. If you can find PVs that open later good. But try to run with them plugged. If that cleans up the bottom end you will probubly fine your top end lean. If so go up on the mains
it doesnt blow black smoke so much as it smells of unburnt fuel gases . black on rim of plug & ground strap . porcilean is off white . i put a wolf whistle on it & it cleaned up alot (small vaccumm leak) , so not enuff air or to much fuel . no i havent done the high speed check yet . went to a hotter plug which helped but not fixed it . how many sizes would you try on the main jets ? yes the acc pump is on summer , i even tried unhooking them . im not sure i understand the power valve setup . i tried 1 step bigger in size which im told is smaller in size . bigger p/v = smaller ... oppisite of jets as im told ....................... thanks .. steve
After running my banger last year and having major carb icing issues i made this heat box set-up ( Munson thermal Regulator ) i had to give it a cool name. I will post more pics and a video this weekend, It keeps the canister on the carb at 115 degrees and the carb base still feels cool but not wet and frozen like it was. Runs much smoother also. no more hesitation and stumbling The close up pic is inside the heat regulator it has 2 fine mesh screens made from a tea ball , it worked perfectly, i will post close up pics of everything since I could never find a good solution that looked cool online. i know I cant be the only one with the icing carb problem, By the way there is another heat collector box that fits around the manifold that you can not see in these pics, I will be sure to make good pics of everything soon
I believe he is running 97's. Steve, the power valve operates when the throttle is fully depressed on a 97. Some jet numbers are marked with the drill size and the smaller the number the larger the drill diameter.
Bill- you asked Why are you drawing the stems down and do you know the rockwell of the head thanks Bill At the time that I made them, I had no access to a Rockwell tester, however, using the heat treating manuals the heads should have ended up C62-63, and the stems C60-61. As to why I drew down the stems, I was told many years ago to always draw anything that you harden (especially with a liquid quench) even if it is only a draw in boiling water--and also to draw as soon as you can hold the part in your hand--not in an hour or two, or the next day. Obviously, the heads only got a boiling water draw, the stems I took up to about 400*F by color. Herb
Thanks Herb... I was thinking you wonted the stems soft. If you had to make some lifters today would you use A2? A2 works for me I work with it almost every day at work. I have been talking with my bosses about making lifters I just didn't wont to make them to hard and kill the cam. We send heat treat out all most every week so I would let the pros do my heat treat.
Bill, I would say that A-2 would be OK. D-2 has Higher Chrome and Carbon which allows it to get harder and has better wear properties. But it's dimensional stability during heat treat is worst then A-2. These are all small factors as they apply to lifters. A-2 will out live your cam. .
I talked to some cam grinders about doing a roller cam. It seems most cam grinder have masters that they work from. To get the most out of a roller cam the profile would be so out of the box it would take a lot of a R&D. Winfield did it in a shed I would hope we can do it today. It hard to find guys to work with that wont brake the bank.
T Head i would be interested in your comments on the Winfield two up two down motor what made it go so well and your thoughts on its intake system?
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