Neat Early Rear Engine Dragster

Thunderace · Feb 6, 2009

Great pictures,
Big fan of early rear engineed stuff,
Even had a go at building a sidewinder a few years back.

Dolmetsch makes some intresting points, I know that as far as the short rear mount set up goes it works fine till you get the point where aerodynamics become the ruling factor, at which point because the centre of pressure is ahead of the centre of gravity the whole plot becomes unstable and refuses to 'fly straight',
Rear wings mounted behind the rear axle which move the centre of pressure further back were the cure, but I think while waiting for the cure extra inches may have been added to the length, plus the aim was to get more than 100% of the cars mass pushing down on the rears at launch ( without requiring wieght transfer ) so the only way to stop the front lifting was to make the car longer.

payjdyas · Aug 20, 2009

GasserGlass said: ↑

This car was built by my uncles Bill & Dave Coleman who owned Coleman Bros. Speed Shop in Elkridge Maryland..... This car has some real racing history.... One of the very first Rear Engine Cars that Worked! ....... Was once the worlds fastest Chevy powered dragster!...... I've been told by many of the local Old racers that are still around, that Garlits, Kaleta and other up & coming racers in the early 60's tripped and fell over each other in the pits while trying to run though the pits to see this car run at York, Capital etc...... Being from the east the car didn't get its true respect & props as the TRUE "First Rear Engine Dragster" .... That title went to one of the guys who just about broke his neck trying to see this car run!..... One Rag called this car/team " The Dark Horse From The East"
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Hi GasserGlass,
I grew up with Bill and Dave Coleman in Linthicum. I raced with them and worked part-time in the speed shop in the late 60's. Knew their whole family (I think) and I am not aware that Bill and Dave ever had any nieces or nephews. Exactly who are you?

GEEZZER · Aug 20, 2009

Dolmetsch said: ↑

Short wheelbase? I think one needs to sit down and think through a lot of the reasons often given why short wheelbasecars dont work, How we got to RED from FED and why Big Daddys car wanted to turn at the end of a run.
I run a 96 incher FED. It goes so straight i could put my finger in my ear and drive it i think . I know it isnt high Hp but it is short. Why does a rail need to be 300 inches and a funny car around 120? Same power same speeds. Why did engines go to the rear because it is often said that if not no one would be able to drive an FED a current power levels? Huh????? Dont tell John Force that. Garlits got hurt because his torqueflight trans exploded due to an overspeeding Low reverse drum. Any torqueflight with a full maunual reverse patteren valve body is in danger of doing this if a burnout is started in low gear and then the thriottle lifted. Us mopar guys know "Dont do your burnout in low"! The reason in simple terms is the trans has no braking action on let up with a reverse pattern manual valve body so LR drum speed can hit 10000rpm and beyond after letting up in frst gear. That is what happened to large father then BUT for 30 years at least Fuel dragsters do not use trannies and funny car guys are sitting right in there with all the stuff with no trouble. We forget that. Altereds are relatively short as well. 90 is pretty short for sure but 110 to 125 is not unreasonable. When is the last time you saw a 300 inch long formula one or indy car?
If the large father had a Rack and pinion steering on the first RED of fame instead of a long flexible rod running from a conventional steering box pitman arm to a steering arm at the front axle ,all the while swinging through a different arc BTW then the rest of the front suspension, it would have been a mott point. I like these old cars like the thread starting pic here and think they get a bad rap. I believe one should step back a think it all through. I do not believe in mysterious things. There is a reason for everything mechanical. Nice photos btw. Isnt someone on here running a RED slant six HAGR?
Don
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Garlits never had a torqueflight. back then the ran a Lenco trans. When he lost his foot ,the clutch blew up.

c-10 simplex · Aug 24, 2009

In addition, i need to know if Bill Coleman either still has a shop and/or would be willing to take on some additional work---engine rebuild/machining.

i need a good machine shop in the d.c. area and i know Coleman brothers is quality.

James Maxwell · Aug 24, 2009

GEEZZER said: ↑

Garlits never had a torqueflight. back then the ran a Lenco trans. When he lost his foot ,the clutch blew up.
Click to expand...

Note --- he ran a Lenco AFTER the Lions blowup, it was a B&?, B&T or some unit as I recall, and that was a transmission explosion and not a clutch explosion. Lenco used forged internals, the failed one had cast pieces.

James Maxwell · Aug 24, 2009

Bruce Lancaster said: ↑

There were lots of early experiments with rear engine dragsters, including at least one with a crossways engine, but all died out without much influence or success as front engine cars developed into the classic slingshot of the sixties. Then Garlits blew his foot off and he and the world shifted to rear engine overnight...what were the dynamics here, the problems/successes of old short wheel base cars with fron and rear engines?? What was going on with traction and stability?
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Agree, but Garlits will be the first to admit he wasn't the first to switch to RE, only the first to make it work RE: handling, his employee slowed down steering ratio and on the way they went! After Big Daddy won some races did the others take notice and then make the switch, John Weibe was the last hold out I think.

hotroddon · Aug 24, 2009

Actaully Garlits deal wasn't a Torqueflite, a Lenco, or a B&T. Here's Don own words;
“In the burnout – we had put a new transmission in for the final because we were afraid that this was an experimental transmission -- it was a ‘GarlitsDrive,’ we were building it ourselves in cooperation with the Quartermaster company in Chicago. So we put a new one in for the final. And I heard a little noise in the thing… actually heard it over the engine when I did the burnout. That was a warning that something had give up in the transmission, but I was not aware of it, you know?
“The car staged and we went forward. I stepped down on the fuel and let the clutch out and this huge (ball of) black smoke and orange flame came into the cockpit, because when it blew up the oil was in it and it burned, you know…
“And then the next I knew is I was tumbling and in that instant I had my foot cut off. The shock of that trauma changed what I was thinking. I no longer remembered being on the starting line, I thought (Wrongly) I was in the traps and that the clutch had exploded and cut the car in two and I was tumbling. I thought to myself, ‘God, I hope this thing doesn’t hit a telephone pole’ and just plays itself out.
“So then I stopped and all these people were around me. It took me a minute to realize that I had not left the starting line. I had not gone down the track like I thought. The first person I recognized was Mickey Thompson. He came to me and he saw the problem by the way my foot had been cut off. He tucked my leg under his arm so that I could not see it. I knew there was a lot of damage because the blood was just spraying everywhere. The car was coming down on me and I knew I was hurt pretty bad. It was a grim moment.
“As a side-note to that: Richard Tharp red-lit on that run. I was actually the winner. When the transmission blew up, it cut all the power poles down at that moment. In other words, the light went yellow-green for my lane and yellow-red for Richard Tharp and then the transmission exploded and cut all the power down. The power poles were right there. The lights went out and he went on down the track and in all that confusion they actually gave him the win. They didn’t know he red-lit, but he red-lit.”

James Maxwell · Aug 24, 2009

Right, or some such NON Lenco unit.

Little Wing · Aug 24, 2009

c-10 simplex · Aug 30, 2009

So....does anyone know if the coleman brothers still do engine work?

GasserGlass · Oct 18, 2009

payjdyas said: ↑

Hi GasserGlass,
I grew up with Bill and Dave Coleman in Linthicum. I raced with them and worked part-time in the speed shop in the late 60's. Knew their whole family (I think) and I am not aware that Bill and Dave ever had any nieces or nephews. Exactly who are you?
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WHO ARE YOU????? If you worked at CMS or the Speed Shop then I know who you are or will at least have some idea?....Your NAME?

GasserGlass · Nov 25, 2009

c-10 simplex said: ↑

So....does anyone know if the coleman brothers still do engine work?
Click to expand...

YES....... At his home shop.

HemiRambler · Nov 25, 2009

Here's a pic my Father in Law took back in the day. I can't recall the particulars, but I'm sure he does.

HemiRambler · Nov 26, 2009

I talked with my father in law tonight - the pic above he took in 1956 at Akron Drag strip (Ohio) the guy who ran the car was named DePue (sp?)

Captain Chaos · Nov 26, 2009

Tony Nancy had a successful rear engine in 1965 , it was 489 cui Olds power .

Rex Stevens runs a restored Speed Sport car , I recall him initially catching flack when he brought it to Nostalgia runs because its a rear engine. Also Driver of Dawsons Demon

Chrome Streamliner · Nov 26, 2009

I remember the Coleman Bros.Dragster very well, I saw it run many times at Aquasco and Capital Raceway, as I remember, it hauled ass! and went very straight.
Thanks for posting !

c-10 simplex · Nov 27, 2009

GasserGlass said: ↑

YES....... At his home shop.
Click to expand...

OK......soooooooooo is there a way i can get in contact with him? Or does he not accept customers "off the street?"

curbspeed · Nov 27, 2009

Tom still has the car.(unless something has changed) He is "vintagegasser" here on the hamb. He is a longtime friend and a wealth of information. I suppose he will post soon.

Ruiner · Nov 29, 2009

Any chance any of the blower components (intake, front and rear case covers, blower drive) are from Sneaky Pete Robinson Engineering? Or perhaps Ohio George Montgomery? They made parts together and the blower drive looks familiar from Pete's catalog...

vintagegasser · Jan 8, 2010

Blower drive snout, 2" blower pulleys, idler bracket and blower rear cover plate all are early Isky items. Intake is a Edelbrock, front timing cover is going to be changed to the two piece (large bearing) Mickey Thompson item. Hilborn fuel pump runs through a Hilborn distributor adapter that requires a short tang drive Vertex Magneto. Chassis Research high gear bellhousing attaches to a CAE 360 degree steel "Armor Shield", drive coupler is a mere three inches to the early Halibrand quick change rear end (non spool) that has Chassis Research floating hubs and axles. Early photo's show that the car ran a large fuel tank mounted upright on the outside of the car just behind the drivers left shoulder. Isky ran ads as well as Drag News proclaiming this car to be the World Fastest Chevy @180mph in Sep. of 1961. This claim would last for just a little over a month when the West Coast team from Champion Speed Shop stole the glory with a pass of 180 and change. I found the rolling chassis here in the Northwest in 1987 less m/t, frame had been extended from the front spring perch some 48inches. In this configuration I have found several Drag papers stating times in the 8.70's as late as 1967. Interesting side note is that when I was purchasing this car I passed on the owners other car that he had for sale thinking it was "too new" for my taste, that car turned out to be the "Howard Cams Rattler" thankfully now residing in the NHRA Parks Museum.

vintagegasser · Jan 8, 2010

An early b/w picture taken when the Coleman car arrived in the NW around 1964,

firingorder1 · Jan 8, 2010

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the "Smokin' White Owl'. flathead powered early 50s RED. Or Chrisman's "Sidewinder". Both extremely successful REDs. It was a wonderful period of innovation and thinking.

Shagrat · Feb 13, 2010

Here is one that I pulled out of the weeds a few years ago. I have other pix of it somewhere, but I can't find them.
It had a narrowed banjo axle and looked like it was set-up for a flathead.
A guy from Indianapolis bought it and put it together. I lost his contact info, so I never saw how it turned out.

Mary Ellen · Jun 1, 2010

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 12"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CADMINI%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><link rel="themeData" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CADMINI%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx"><link rel="colorSchemeMapping" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CADMINI%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml"><style>  </style> I just happened to google "Coleman Brothers Speed Shop" and discovered this site. I called David (Coleman), told him about it, updated his email address, and sent him the link to this site. He has given me verbal permission to print his email address here: davidcoleman554@embarqmail.com.

He currently spends his time between his home in MD (no internet access) and his home out of state (internet access). His brother, Bill, still lives in MD, however I haven't spoken to him recently and therefore won't disclose information about him.

I would like to correct the person who refers to David and Bill as his "uncles." David and Bill had one other brother who did not have children. David and I are the parents of one daughter and he is a stepfather to my older daughter. Bill had no children. Perhaps this person uses the word,"uncle," in an endearing manner rather than in a familial manner.

David requested that I enclose his address and invites those who "knew him when" to say hello. He will have information about the work Bill is now doing from his home shop.
Thanks,
Mary Ellen

borntoloze · Sep 22, 2010

ooops

GasserGlass · Jun 7, 2010

borntoloze said: ↑

Wow, this is so cool ... David and Bill will be able to speak to/meet a nephew they never knew they had.

Interesting that Gasserglass refused to answer Payjdyas' question, and now Mary Ellen Coleman speaks up and verifies what Payjdyas said earlier. So ... enlighten us all Gasser ... who are you?

I realize that this has absolutely nothing to do with SWB REDragsters ... I just find it interesting that someone would claim to be something that they apparently are not.
Click to expand...

Oh Brother........DAVE is unaware that this is about me...Had he known, he would have set the record straight...Dave is a busy man now with his new property out of town & retirement! And I Didn't know there was a question, Maybe somebody should have sent me private message to let me know my attendance was needed?!?!?!?.... Bill Coleman has been in my life long before I ever had a drivers license! Bill Coleman has Been UNCLE BILL to me for 40 years OR MORE? I'm the one he tells the speed secrets to, I know the COOL and WILD True Stories about the Wild Old York Races as with many others.....

I'm the one he tells the racing stories to, I'm the one who will cut's the grass when undependable so called Friends or Bussness doesnt show up... I cut the grass over and over and over and over when the local kids are not around to take up the slack.....I ask for nothing for cutting the grass and he offers nothing...Its my job that a nephew would do for his uncle!

Im the one BILL gave a 1957 Chrysler Hemi To si I can drop it into my Amish Buggy Project..... The Hemi is sitting in his shop now..... Dave gave me the crankshaft and bill is giving me the heads from his old fuel dragster as well.

Have any of you had a mentor????? Have you ever looked up to a person that was your senior that you had the utmost respect for????? Did you ever call a person who was not blood related Uncle Or Aunt just because they were so deeply ingrained into your heart, mind body & soul..... Bill was there for me when my father died & was armed with kind words as well as words of wisdom for your future...... There is soooooo much more that my personal Hero, Uncle, Mentor has done for me that he would not do for anybody else! So there, now you know the rest of the story......

Maybe you should find somebody that you look up to and respect to the level that I respect my uncle Bill.....A man that most of the other machine shops call for help ALL THE TIME...EVERY DAY!..... They call him The GOD FATHER!

From machining the front fork on my bicycle to making front forks longer to give my 20 inch bike that chopper look..... To building 5 or 6 killer racing and street small & Big block Chevy engines that was rarely beat in a street race or anywhere else for that matter. Other then Uncle Dave, I'm the guy who knows The What, The Where and to whom the treasure will go to!

Bill Coleman will be "Uncle Bill" to me if I live to be 102 years old..... However, chances are good that Bill will outlive me! Love Ya Uncle Bill...Pay no attention to the Jealous NOSY people. See Ya Soon.

NitroDragster · Jun 7, 2010

Hey Gasser, Pay the fools No Mind and the No Nothings even less! I've often wondered who cut Mr. Bill Grass? I know he works in the machine shop for what seems like 24-7 and didn't think he did it? So who cuts the grass now that your up there in your new fiberglass shop? (God Country) Last time I saw Mr. Bill, He was trying to get his Car Lift back down into the ground? Did he ever get it working again or back into the floor?

I saw your movie's on YOUTUBE and enjoyed them very much, The movie of you running that antique Surface Grinder in Colemans Garage was neat as hell! Funny how those old machines do a much better job then a new machine can! Tell Mr. Coleman I said hello and that I asked about him okay?

Take care and thanks again for the scoop, it looks great! I'll send some new pics.

UNCLE Clide

Bill Van Dyke · Jun 7, 2010

Those "Speed Sport" cars sure multiply as the years go by don't they?

GasserGlass · Oct 7, 2010

Seems that way huh?

GasserGlass · Oct 7, 2010

Bill Van Dyke said: ↑

Those "Speed Sport" cars sure multiply as the years go by don't they?
Click to expand...

Seems That Way Huh?

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Neat Early Rear Engine Dragster

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