History Auto racing 1894-1942

Doesn't look like a Hisso to me, but the car appears to be a two-man Indy Car! Will have to check a few pics, but not today - it's late here!

 

Found a little time to study this car and the caption that came with it describing it as being Hisso powered is incorrect. The vee angle with I mentioned earlier is quite narrow which was unusual in the US at the time.

Compare it to the photo of an intact Hisso V-8 which has a much wider V-angle. These engines were used in many race cars with most having special crankcases and were called a half a Hisso and used only four cylinders.

Regardless this looks like an early thirties high quality Indy car judging by the frame and suspension. I am guessing someone spent a lot of time and money rebuilding this car for street use although it looks like it is still wearing racing tires. If that is the original racing tail and nose it should be able to be identified by them as they are quite distinct.

Can anyone identify the engine in this car...... Looks like and overhead V-8 with a narrow angle, possibly foreign?

*******

I thought about this a while longer...... and I think it may have a Wills Sainte Claire V-8. I found a photo of one which has the same narrow angle and the covers above the exhaust manifolds. If it is a Wills with the hood on we cannot see the longer cam housings of the distinctive OHC V-8. If it was raced with this engine that may make it easier to identify.

Incidentally they used to use the crankshafts out of these Wills V-8's in Model T racing engines as they had an 180 degree flat crank.

 

The car is in the Midwest under restoration

 

This is the mystery photo on the Vanderbuilt Cup site of Howard Kroplick. I an surprised that no one has named them. I guess it was toooo easy for you cats on here. I can name three of them. I don't know who the ones in the center are, Tommy Milton and Wilbur Shaw are obvious. I think Rickenbacher is on the end, but the other two have me stumped although the guy next to Rickenbacker is real familiar. What say ye of historical knowledge?
HG

 

DePalma second from Right.

 

Good eye! It is definitely a White, but the reason it looks "beefier" and "stouter" than the lil' White GAF "30" is that it is actually a 60 hp, 6-cylinder White GF "Sixty" circa 1912 to 1914. It does appear to be more "professional" then your average "backyard special", but probably not a factory team car. It most likely started life as a Touring or a Roadster. I know of only one nicely restored example that currently resides in the Nethercutt Collection and previously to the Harrah Collection. It was original and unrestored and was purchased from the original owners, a family from Rye, NY who bought it but could hardly drive it due to the poor road conditions outside the town. As a result, the White sat in the barn..always washed and polished. On top of this, a White Co. service agent was sent to the family home to service and maintain the White every year through 1925! When Bill Harrah purchased it, it was in almost perfect running order.

 

Welcome to the racing thread, I have seen your T elsewhere and I really like it. Please post any good racing photos you many have and we also like Model T race cars here.

You maybe correct about the White being a six. I am aware of the big White six's and I know this has a longer hood. I have also seen quite a few racing cars with longer hoods to accommodate set back engines and possibly the steering box as we see the pitman arm coming out the side of the hood.

Before we say it is one we need to find a good photo of a six from the same side to compare hoods and steering box locations. I have seen a photo of one of the sixs from this side before I believe in one of the early club magazines.

 

This photo is has an old note on the back Howard S Wilcox – National 40. Looks like it my be circa 1910-12.

 

I`d say, as I believe the large goggle wiping cloth on his helmet was a style that ended for the most part after that time.

 

Here is a link to go to to find all about the Wills Sainte Claire. http://www.willsautomuseum.org/

 

Thanks for the welcome and glad I finally had a reason to get in on this one! I agree with you on the White, although I believe this is...or at least was a "Sixty" at one point as many of the parts appear to be White "Sixty".

Her is a copy from an original 1912 White series "GF" "Sixty" parts catalog showing the hood, radiator, and pitman arm tunnel in it's stock location.

..and a few other Racing pics for this thread. If some of these have already been posted, I apologize....there are just too many posts and I can't remember them all

 

MrModelT
Thanks for the welcome and glad I finally had a reason to get in on this one! I agree with you on the White, although I believe this is...or at least was a "Sixty" at one point as many of the parts appear to be White "Sixty".


Well, then that is good because now we know for sure that it probably is. Thanks for taking the time to find that illustration. Those big Whites are quite impressive, I have read about them in the past. I don't think they made many of them either.

Does anyone have any info about if White ever got involved in racing?

 

They are quite impressive automobiles. My good friend Chris, "powerwagonmaniac" here on the H.A.M.B., and his dad Bill have a 1913 GAF "30" touring that I am privileged to helping on the restoration. They have had the car since 1971 and started to pull her apart in 1977, but got side tracked on their '34 Rolls PII Continental that they have had since '63.

The White has a interesting history that I wish I new more about. Early in it's life it was badly damaged in a serious wreck, most likely between 1913 and 1916 when it was still valuable enough to repair (any later and it most likely would have just been scrapped). The wreck was bad enough that it broke the left front frame horn clean off, mashed up the front springs (which were straightened), shattered the left front wheel, shattered the right motor mount on the aluminum crankcase, shattered the front aluminum transmission mount, shattered the right rear axle housing and mashed up the fenders bad enough that they found a new left front and made a new right rear. The spent a lot of time and effort welding, patching and riveting it all back together and put her back on the road. Not much else is known about its history except that it was driven very hard (most of second gear is gone) and was possibly used by the Oregon DOT in the 1920's and 30's. in 1977 we had a hard freeze so my buddy and his family drained all the cars so they would not freeze, but when the drained the White they only drained the radiator and forgot to drain the block. Needless to say it cracked (split it wide open). The motor was tired anyway, they started the resto.


Chris and I have the chassis mostly back together and are working on the engine and body. We have slowed a bit on the motor since we are looking for new bearings for the crank. The White engines have NO center mains (the crank is floating), just 2 huge roller ball bearings at each end....never seen an engine quite like it.

 

This Franklin was at Hershey about 6 years ago, great unrestored car. The thing that amazed me was the overhead valve setup. SOMEHOW both intake and exhaust were in the same pocket. If there is a cross section illustration out there that someone could post it would be great to see. Welcome to the thread MrModelT, always liked your T.

 

Thank you, happy to be joining in on the fun!

The Franklin engine design amazes me too, as does the fact that they used Full-Elliptical "buggy" springs (at all four corners!) on a car of that size...and a race car no doubt, and the fact that the frame is entirely wood in order to make is lighter. Brush has 'em beat though...they use an all wood frame and wood axles (metal end caps for the spindles, but the axle itself is a 5 or 6" dia. Hickory dowel).

I just love original "survivors" like this...they just have so much character! There is something about them for me that make you just want to drive it.

The 2 race cars I would just DIE to get behind the wheel of..even if it were just for a day, are the "New York to Paris" Thomas-Flyer and "Old Number 16"....and when I say "drive" I don't mean a lap around the block...I mean just me, the car and the open highway. I would love nothing more than to open up "Old #16" on a straight stretch and see what she would REALLY do ...let her run again like the old days.

...sorry got a little sidetracked

 

OLD 16 lived up the road from me and it was driven to every meet as far as I know. T-Head wrote about his connection to it many pages back on this thread. Scroll back and ride with him in the T Head MERCER vidio.

 

MrModelT, you will need to get in line behind me. I sat in the NY-P Thomas many years ago, but have always wanted to go for a spin. Just dream about Old 16. That would be a trip.
Bob.

 

'37, this Franklin damned near ran over me when it was at Hershey. I was mesmerized listening and looking and walked right our in front of it. The valve arrangement on this Franklin is the same as the one I described to you at the Horseless Carriage tour. I'd also like to see some good detailed drawings if anyone has them.

 

Just amazing how much ANTIQUE stuff is on the HAMB and NOT on another site isn't it?

 

... more appreciation here, from what I understand...

 

Peter Helck was an excellent custodian for "Old 16" because he saw her for what she really was and still is, a true American treasure. He also treated her how she was suppose to be treated, like a race car and drove the heck out of her for many, many years. I am so thankful that still remains the case all these years later..though she probably doesn't get drivin' as much as she should and they probably don't open her up and let her run like the old days....I would

I read in an article somewhere..it escapes me at the moment, that Old 16 is suffering from a worsening crack in the block that is allowing water in the oil pan and, as a result, the Ford Museum will drastically cut back or possibly stop her operation to prevent it from getting worse and causing damage. If this is true, it would be a terrible shame and a needless waste. Why not do what the Locomobile team would have done: pull her apart, fix the problem and put her back on the road stronger then before. I don't see why that could not be done without ruining her condition. It's a machine, they brake....fix it.

...then let me road test it

Was thinking the other night, it would be pretty cool to put Old 16, the Marmon Wasp and a few of the other surviving Vanderbilt and Indy cars from that period and let them "duke it out" for a few victory laps at the 500 next year for the 100th anniversary.

Oh, believe me....I know where I stand in THAT line: The line goes around the building 9 times and I'm at the end of it

The Thomas is undoubtedly my favorite...the story, the people, the triumph of man and machine! Just never had a chance to see it in person though, hope to fix that soon though.

I will dream about those cars, I do all the time....probably one the only 25 year olds who does

 

No kidding, this is my kinda thread!

 

Knowing you are 25 and have this much interest is VERY comforting to know. I took these photos of Old 16 at the show here in town back in 1966 when I was 15.

 

Thank you. For me, it is a passion. Unlike most my age, I am interested in, enthralled by, and I admire the Brass-era cars, these early "Pioneers of the American Road" more than your average Chevelle, Mustang, Charger or Cuda. I marvel at their simplicities , their complexities, their craftsmanship, advances, raw lumbering sound and power...but above all, their personalities, character and their "feel" that you only get from driving one. I also believe in using them for what they were intended: Driving them. For me, it does not matter whether it's a $4 million dollar Duesenberg, Old 16, the Thomas Flyer, an A-bone or your everyday, run of the mill "Tin Lizzy" they deserve to driven, loved, shared, broken, fixed, loved and driven some more....I would do nothing less.

Unlike the rest of my age group, I would take a brass era car over a 60's or 70's muscle car any day...and hopefully one day I will own my own.

 

..Sorry, was also going to thank you for the great pictures! Those must be from the Peter Helck days.

 

Jack Johnson and Barney Oldfield 1910 ...was this a match race? The track looks super steep in this pic...

 

Second from the left looks like Leon Duray, Shaw and DePalma. The big kilroy guy on the right reminds me of an actor I barely recall.

 

Jack Johnson and Barney Oldfield 1910 ...was this a match race?

Yes it was, I have the details somewhere and a photo. He was a champion boxer, he drove a big six cylinder Knox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Johnson_(boxer)