A Nice Cheater, If the track techs. weren't checking. You could take a 1968 Chevelle 327/325HP, swap the carb from the 327/250HP on it (same intake manifold), and claim 250HP. Run L/Stock and 'be happy' It was done,,,,,, PC
Naaaa.......these guys would never do that.....lol. Besides I believe the double hump feature showed on the heads of 325 HP version. When NHRA stopped checking carb numbers both carbs would be legal (Q-Jets).
Thats a very nice "real" stocker. It was running "Q/SA" when I saw it last year. There is a beautiful black crate motored 55 running also. Not to mention the very nice 57 283/220 HP 210 sedan running H/PS.
X-Tech, The trick was to go through the tech inspection area very late, just before noon (closing for inspection). Try to get the newbie-tech. inspector. AHH,, double-hump heads,,,you know what to look for,,#041 castings. Paul
Actually, #041 heads would be given away by the accessory bolt holes. For a '68 the most likely ringer would have been a #462.
STRCTLY OLDS!!!!! I think I could be on my third small block Chevy for what GOOD Olds stuff costs. I'll keep ya'll posted. Thanks for the interest.....Dave.
Tiny E, At the shop we used a Tobin-Arp Valve/Guide Seat Machine. The 3/angle cutter was the best, in keeping the valve seats concentric. Then we would use the stone-grinder for the 0 and 15 degree top-dress, and 70 degree in the bowl area. In total, 6-angles (Multi-Angle/Competition Valve Job) That did not include, milling the heads, cc the chambers, match the ports to the gasket, cut the valve guide bosses for Crane teflon seals, set the spring height, and remove the pressed in studs, cut and thread for screw-in studs, install push rod guide plates and rocker studs, new valve springs, new retainers, new valve keepers, Crane teflon seals, and new valves if needed. Then you had to decide, knurl & ream the valve guides or install bronze guide liners. Guess the cost (1972 Price List) Paul Paul
Damn! You guys must be able to read minds!!!!...... I was out in the garage today working on my 56 delivery and thinking about Nejas 55 and wondering how far he had gotten with the restoration, then I get on the thread and you guys are talking about it and showing pics. (I should come to you guys for lotto numbers!!!) Mr. Neja,please check in and let us know how its going!
In Jan. 1972 I went to work as Parts Manager for Harold Ramsey's Pontiac dealership. We were charging $8 per hour in the shop. GM paid us $5.50 for warranty work and the tech's got about $3.50. Going by those prices, I would guess the head work to be about $150. I do remember taking a pair of 348 heads to the NAPA store in 1965 and paying $19 for a valve job, of course that is all it was worth!
Your in the ballpark, A Basic valve-job on a chevy small-block $50.00 A street/strip 3/angle valve job $75.00 A Competition 6/angle-multi-angle valve job $110.00 That didn't include any of the specialties. PC * $19.00 in 1965, What was the machinist making,,$1.25/hour
Tiny E, Found an old Holley Carburetor ad in 1969. 780cfm's for $52.95 Also, Gratiot Auto Supply for a Mopar 8 3/4, 4.56 gears with the #42 case $125.00 ,,,,,,,Ouch is that cheap. PC
Paul, Your post prompted a question in my mind (maybe best answered by our resident tech inspectors). A 4,5 or 6 angle valve job would obviously be better "flow-wise" than a 2 or 3 angle, but what did the tech inspectors look for at tear-down? Was a valve removed to check the pocket port or seat? Were they OK with a 6 angle? What if the inner radius was just chamfered inside the first 2 or 3 cuts? Would that be a disqualification? I didn't live through it in those days but I'd love to know what was checked and what was allowable. Let's use a '62 409 A-stocker as an example and I hope someone can shead some light on my curiousity. Verne
Paul, I bought a complete '62 Chevy 4.56 posi 3rd member with ZOOM (Perfection American) gears from Gratiot in '69 for $90. plus shipping. I still have it and use it (not often). Verne
This is the rule as per Div. 1 tech Director Greg X when I went to work for him in the early 70's. Other Division tech directors may have allowed some name racers to get away with a little more as I understood it. The rivalry between divisions was pretty intense at times. Marty Barrett in Div. 3 was just as tough as Greg X. A 3 (Three) angle valve seat was all that was allowed. Top cut, OEM seat angle cut and bottom cut. Top cut no more than .250 thou larger than the valve seat diameter and the bottom cut could be no more than .250 thou deep as measured from the OD of the seat angle down into the bowl. There was no limit on the width of the valve seat within practical limits. No radius cuts were allowed and one OEM angle on the valve unless the manufacturer had more than one angle on the valve from the factory in which there was such a case in later years involving the 1971 455 SD Pontiac engines and later many more when the OEMs discovered a back cut on the valve improved gas milage. Yhis is one reason a back cut on the valve is allowed today. One guy won class at INDY (I think in 1972 or 73) with a 71 SD 455 and was almost DQed until some Pontiac Manufaturer reps told NHRA that it came that way from Pontiac. His engine had never been apart before the class win at INDY as in not even blue printed. Id say it was underrated at the time. Ron Mancinni was DQed while trying to set the NHRA record with his 1963 Max wedge Super Stocker (Zoomo) back in the stone age for back cutting the valve. He tried to call it "Trueing the valve" but it didnt fly....lol. This story is documented in an old Car Craft magazine but I dont remember which month and year. The 426 Hemi was allowed a 5 angle seat as it came that way but most I saw in tear down were just 3 angles. In this case less was OK. Heads were really OEM stock until about the late 70's then the so called "acid porting" started to come into vogue and made stock and S/S racing very expensive leading into what we have today in NHRA racing. Bogus heads and intakes are a pet pieve with me and one reason why I "Retired" from inspecting about 9 or 10 years ago when the powers that be would not let the tech guys do their jobs and throw out bogus crap. Believe me when I tell you these car combos that have been beat on for a couple of decades are using every "trick" in the book and use ported but hidden port work in the heads and intake manifols to run as fast as they do. Ive seen it and know several racers who use this stuff. This crap continues on today in NHRA if you have kept up with the current goings on. OK....Im off my soap box for now.
X-Tech Man, Thats exactly why Tobin-Arp Machine was the way to go back then. The first to utilize a 3/angle carbide cutter. You could set the width of the cuts, and Bam! 8 perfect valve seat cuts, and the same size and same depth. Stone grinding,,,,AHHH! grind, dress stone, measure, grind, dress stone. Change stone....Kind of like watching my wife dress, re-dress, re-dress. Paul
You had to keep the carbides sharp or keep buying new ones if you did a lot of heads. They would leave chatter marks when they got a little dull then you had to lightly touch the seats with a stone to smooth them out. Look at one with a magnifying glass before and after and see what you get. I did heads since 1969 and relyed on my Souix grinder and facer. Had several record holders on the NHRA record list in the mid 70's using my stuff back when the heads were REALLY stock....lol. The K.O. Lee seat and guide machne worked great until they were used a little then it was "chatter city" no matter the RPM and how much pressure you applied.
X Tech Man Back in the 60s and early 70s I worked for Marty. I was told by a east coast Racer that they had a cutter made to enlarge the Intake and exhaust bowls One reason their small blocks were so fast old-old timer
Old-Old Timer, We utilized a cutter called the "V" Hogger. 70 degree angle, and a nice sharp carbide cutter. Just slide in the valve-guide pilot, slide over a relief-tension spring and drop down the cutter, and go to work. To prevent cutter-chatter, we would put a little Dippity-Do (hair product) on the cutter-blade. Found it neccesary on the 70 degree deep cuts! PC
Yep.....I know of a 428 CJ racer that had a pair of cutters and opened his up also back around 1975 or so.
Old Old Timer did you used to belong to the Falls City Corvette club in Louisville Ky. and own an LT 1 Corvette?
Thanks very much for the explanation. Who knows, you might have teched my car at E-town in the early 70's. Verne
X-Tech Man, Always good to touch-up the seats with a grinding stone. Sioux, Hall-Toledo and Kwik-Way, all good valve griding equipment. Winona PH-2000 was one hell of a valve guide/seat machine. Most of the performance shops wanted them, because of the strong cylinder head cradle, you could drive in valve seats or valve guides, with the head mounted in the floating-cradle. What a piece of machinery. PC
X-Tech Man Sorry that is not me. I have been in Indy since the early 60s. I also worked for IRP in to the late 1980s Quit racing 1980 old-old timer
I worked the Summer Nationals at English Town N.J. in 1974 and 75 and the points races there also in the same years. Those were the only 2 years I worked for NHRA. IHRA gave me a better deal ($) and I gave them over 22 years.....lol. I did work several NMCA races when they were based out of RHS in Memphis Tenn.
Tiny E, I think it could be done. I'm not sure of the casting #'s, as it was many moons ago. The 1968 327/325HP 4-speed only Chevelle utilized #291 castings, 2.02/1.60 valves and 61.2 cc chambers for 11.0-1 compression with dome pistons. There was another casting head, I think #813 or #414 that had 1.94/1.50 valves, but with a 57.cc chamber. If you got those heads, swapped in the bigger valves (with a little custom valve work), and put them on, I think compression was up to 11.5. The trick, the outside of the heads looked just like the #290 castings of the 327/250HP engine. Bingo, that was the trick. Of course it was cheating. Paul
Colesy, The person on the left is Ron Kindel. Shaker Engineering built engines for him at times, and he drove the 1967 SS/EA Camaro for us for the first couple of months. Herb Brinn
Biscaynes, Thank you, and they were very nice heads indeed. Everyone wanted them, casting #291 If I'm correct, they came with 2.02/1.60 or 1.94/1.50 valves, depending on the application. Yes,,,??? Paul
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