what happend here?? cam failure

My cousin had a brand new set of lifters from crane he was about to install, when he accidently dropped one to the ground. The damn thing chipped like it was a piece of glass! this was right on the face of the lifter mind you. I wouldnt rule out inproperly hardened parts. All the right lube and correct procedures wont help a bit if the parts are defictive.

 

2200rpm for about 20min let let the engine cool to room temp this also helps the springs if you put new ones in. Also do not run sythetic oils for breaking in an engine or a different cam. Look into iskys break in oil

 

That is just bad break in or defective chinese parts.. If the valves were adjusted that tight the motor would not run... If clearances were that far off we would be seeing pics of bent pushrods..

 

I vote for wronge oil and break-in procedure. I always use Brad Penn 20-50, moly graphite lube coating the cam and lifter base, prime the pump and 1500-2000 rpm for 20 min for break-in. I agree that if the valves where too tight it wouldn't run right and if you had coil bind or guide bind you would only see the toe of the cam bad. that's my two cents, and I'm stickin' to it.

I'll add this, after another look it seems the lifter wasn't spining either. Might have been a burr in the bore when installed, gotta make sure those things are free.

 

that looks like improper break in, or you have a lifter not turning in its bore, ive had the tight lifter problem luckily i caught it while it was still on the stand

 

Lifters will chip if they are dropped onto a hard surface like concrete. I assume they weren't dropped on soft ground, right? Hard parts will chip, it's soft parts that don't.

Yes, I agree. I can't imagine that the motor would have run too well if at all if the valves were set that tight.

By the way, those of you saying 5 minutes need to read the post again. He said 5 miles, which likely means quite a bit more run time than 5 minutes,

 

The lifters did not rotate and wore in the same spot untill failure.

Not unusual, seen many camshafts like this.

Why did the lifters not spin in their bores?

Bad lifters, cam ground improperly, bores rusty or have insufficient clearance.

Oil or break-in procedure maybe but I suspect is not the cause.

In the engines I have worked on where this occurred the replacement cam did not suffer the same fate even though same procedures were used. Just make sure lifters rotate freely in their bores when you put it back together.

Doubt? Leave the valve covers off and make sure all push rods are spinning while engine is idling.

 

I'll disagree with everybody here only because I have seen this before.

http://www.google.com/search?q="bad...OZA_enCA371CA372&ndsp=18&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw

GM, in the late 70's somehow produced a bad batch of camshafts that ended up going into several hundred thousand 350/305's.

The result was exactly what you have. Worn lobes caused by non hardened camshafts.

The GM engines ran anywhere up to 60,000 miles before the valves ceased to open. And GM didn't cover anything after the 1 year/12,000 mile warranty expired.so alot of not-so-happy customers were hit with the cost of a complete rebuild.

You have a cam that has little to no hardness.

And if that is the case, there will be other people out there looking for advice and/or a refund because cams are run in batches. I see from the box that it included lube as well as it says "USA Made". Well, maybe the box was made in the USA and the cam came out of china..


If you have or know of a high tech welding shop, you might be able to find someone that will do a Brinell Hardness Test (Link) on the cam to see if it is to specs. Compare your worn cam to a good/used cam and see which is softer. You may find what you are looking for but good luck on getting summit to refund your $$$$

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I hate to see any engine suffer like that and I can say with a small block chev you'll need to strip it to the bone and clean every inch of it. I have a idea on this problem but have never put it to print !! So here goes. I rebuild about 50 of these a year and I see a big difference in the lifter bore size. Now taking that into consideration along with new lifters and a bigger lift cam !! Think about this. The stock engine ran for all of it's life with a low lift cam with the lifter running in the same spot for 10000000 miles. So now let's install a completely different brand of lifter with a different machined surface than the stock ones. Oh yeah and let's add some more lift too !! So now we have a worn
in lifter bore and a new lifter and more lift on the cam. So what this creates is tight spots in the lifter bore and the lifter stops rotating !! And when the lifter stops rotating the SHIT STREAM BEGINS !! My fix to this problem is to true the lifter bores with a Sunnen Lifter hone !!! Believe me I see this shit all of the time and the lifter bores in a stock engine are shit let alone the tight spots that are created with the added lift and the different design of lifters that are on the market !! Everbody spends tons of dough on all of the goodies but overlooks the simplest things !! >>>>.

 

ya didnt check to see if the liters spun in the bores freely.,

 

Wow. Lot of good responses. Just to through another thougt in the mix; have you measured all of your valves installed height? Reason I ask; I had a local machine shop sink 1 hardened seat a little less than the others; they added shims to the bottom of the spring to create the correct at rest pressure. NOBODY checked the installed height on the vavles. At full lift that chromoly retainer actually contacted my valve guides; but only on that one. Wiped a single lobe on my cam. I would have caught it if I double checked my machine shop...

Very evident; wear marks on the top of my new bronze valve guide....

 

ENGINE PRO...you may be on to something, but one thing i have noticed is MODERN cams usualy come with very high spring pressure's. in MY view the spring pressure is just to damned high. hell brother i believe all these cam's going flat are because of EXCESSIVE spring pressure. we hardly ever saw cam's going flat in the 60s, sure some did but flat tappits are harder on cam's. YES! i mean think about it, with enough pressure no lifter could turn...POP.

 

That is an interesting take, something I have never thought of. In general how much clearance do you end up adding to the lifter bore. Have you ever measured? In general how much is too much, I would assume at some point if too much material is removed you could get rocking of the lifters in the bores and loss of oil pressure to the (hydraulic) lifters?

 

Flat tappet cam failure is all over the net these days. The reasons are many. Too little zinc in the oil, not broken in properly, no break in lube, bad cam cores, bad lifters, valvetrain goemetry out of whack, miss-matched components. Not sure there is one answer. Every situation is unique. It should not happen with good parts, correct installation, and correct break-in procedure.

 

Hello Newbie Here
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Cam Break-in Procedure
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I am a Retired professional Mechanic and have used this procedure for 40 years to break-in frictional Flat Tappet lifters and cams and never had a cam failure due to pre-mature wear early on.<O></O>
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1. Make sure all engine Oil is full, use a high quality Fresh Engine oil with additive ZDDP and or EOS oil supplement, and a new Oil Filter, and prime the Lubricating system. Very Important for Hydraulic Lifters <O></O>
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2. Make Sure that the cooling system is completely full and bleed of All air to and after the thermostat, radiator is full and cap is installed properly.<O></O>
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3. Carburetor is Primed and full, Fuel tank has enough Fuel in it to enable the engine to Run at least 30 Minutes<O></O>
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4. Make sure that the Fuel pump works and is primed for when the engine is started.<O></O>
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5. Have the ignition firing order right, (not 180 degrees off etc.) and the timing set and locked down so as not to move easily, it can be adjusted slightly after starting to enable the engine to run at its best. The engine Must Start and RUN at it's First Cranking.<O></O>
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6. Make sure that the engine cooling system has a FAN, either mechanical or electric that is running all the time, A large Floor fan running on HIGH in front of the Radiator works very well. This is really important if the engine is FRESH, there will be an awful lot of extra heat to get rid of.<O></O>
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7. Make certain that that the Transmission is full of it lubrication fluid and will be able to run the length of time for the cam break in without any problems, or leaks.<O></O>
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8. Make sure that the valve clearances or adjustment for the lifters is done before starting the engine, also install the valve covers with gaskets to prevent any oil leaks.<O></O>
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9. Now here is THE CRAZY PART<O></O>
Make sure that the Engine and Car is in a VERY Well Ventilated area.<O></O>
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Start the Engine, after it starts take it immediately to 1800-2000 RPM's after getting to this RPM, do something to ensure that the engine will stay at this RPM for a Constant 25-30 Minutes. This is probably the most important thing you can do to break in the cam and lifters While the engine is running, constantly check for leaks of any kind and decide if it warrants shutting down the engine for repairs or not. Minor leaks are not a real problem at this time; they can be repaired after the cam and lifter break-in period.<O></O>
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The reason that this procedure is needed is because at an idle or off Idle the lifters will not ROTATE/SPIN Properly and may stay fixed and not rotate at all, thus start causing a flat spot on the bottom of the lifter that will eat up the cam very quickly, the high RPM's ensure plenty of oil will be thrown onto the cam and lifters for Hydro-Dynamic Lubrication and Cooling of the cam and lifters at the critical HIGH friction Scuffing point of their contact areas.<O></O>
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10. After this break in period the engine can return to Idle for cool-down and timing, carburetor adjustments, or any other things that need to be done with the engine idling. <O></O>
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Obviously with a Roller Lifter Cam things are much simpler, but we can't always use them in our engines.<O></O>
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Notes: If you use an old set of WEAK valve springs for break in it helps reduce the frictional loading at the cam/lifter contact areas, you can also leave one of the springs out or a duel spring set to help too. High Pressure/Tension Valve Springs are not a good idea for break in my own opinion. After break in you can replace the break in springs with your good springs and wail without worry, but still don't let it Idle for awhile just to make sure.<O></O>
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The tried and true method of using air pressure in the cylinder to hold the valves up during the valve spring swap is a good method. You may have to make some adapters to screw into the spark plug hole, but a good tool to have in your tool box.VERY IMPORTANT!!! you must use an air sorce that is constant, if you loose your air pressure to hold up the valves, you may drop a valve into the cylinder. Fishing it back up is a real Bitch, but can be done sometimes. I am sure you wouldn't to try it yourself. <O></O>
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Another good tool to have is an old Distriburator Cap, (that is if you use one these days) You cut out the center area of the Cap between the contact electrodes for the spark plug wires, this allows you to see which cylinder the Rotor Electrode is pointing at for Spark Plug firing and will give you a direct indication which cylinder to go to for the pre-adjustment of the valves, installing the valve covers and gaskets, prior to running it for the break in.<O></O>
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I know this seem like a lot of work, but for us gear heads it is just part of the game. It will also save us some valuable money for other things, and hopefully not for another cam and lifters. Like I said it has never failed for me. <O></O>
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Sorry this got so long, Great site hope to be active quite a lot.<O></O>
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Take Care,<O></O>
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Dusty<O></O>

P.S.

This Procedure above is assuming that all the assembly and fitting checks and precautions for the engine build-up were done correctly and would not detrimentally affect the Cam and Lifters Break-In Procedure described above.

 

For the most part you are just trying to TRUE the lifter bore. If you stick the Sunnen Hone in the bores and give it a couple of passes and remove it for inspection you would be suprised at how crappy the bores are machined. The stock bores in most engines are done with a reamer and the bore doesn't have a very good finish at all. I was really shocked at how crappy the finish actually is !! >>>>.

 

All these hoops of fire to jump through to get a flat tappet cam to break in properly.But if you don't do it,it's all fucked up,I know from experience.
What about the new hi performance cars of the 60's? Did the factories do anything special for break in? I doubt it.And some of those cams had good lift and duration.

 

I always got my GM EOS from a Chevrolet dealership, if they stock it they probably put it in the cars at the factory. And I'm sure the factory had a rigid break in procedure before the cars ever left the factory.
Larry T

 

Oh yeah Back in the day G-M made some additive called EOS !! Best stuff on the planet to dump in the oil of a fresh engine for first time fire up. Not sure but I'd bet it was in the crankcase on the new Chevy's. And most cams from back then just had a ton of valve timing and hardly any lift >>>>.

 

Last time I tried to buy any GM EOS, the parts man said they'd discontinued it. I don't guess they need it for the new roller cammed engines. And the parts guy could have been too lazy to look it up. I'd sure like to have a couple of cases stashed back though. I think some of the cam manufacturers sell the same stuff now, but I haven't used it. I still have a couple of pints of the oem stuff left.
Larry T

 

#### I guess when it comes to the spring pressure thing I'm just old fashion too !! Street performance I like to see 80# at 1.800, Flat tappet solid lift performance I like to see 140# at 1.800 and the solid lift rollers I like to see 240# at 1.900. Oh yeah I still like to run a Rev-Kit on my solid rollers !!! >>>>.

 

Engine Pro is right about stock lifter bores from GM or any manufacturer for that matter.

Most of the time you can get away with a little varience but it is good practice to run a snap gauge in the lifter bores and mic your lifters to make sure your golden. On a competition I would go as far as to say that your tolerance needs to be spot on.

There has been some talk of tight valves and this is something that I wouldn't rule out either. One thing that I have noticed that builders get wrong is with Hydraulic lifters is that when they adjust the valves the first time the lifters are not pumped up. Priming is very important and one should prime the devil out of it before attempting to adjust valve lash.

You would be surprised at how many people don't consider that.

That aside were the engine mine I would be on the horn to Comp Cams rici tic.

 

comp cams recommend that if you are running duel valve springs to remove the inner springs for break in ????? any one ever do that WTF

 

Yep, I found out a long time ago that it's easier to change valve springs than cams. And all of this stuff makes the price of roller cams a lot easier to deal with.

BTW, looks like GM is selling EOS again.
Larry T




DESCRIPTION: Engine Oil Supplement

Gm has reinstated this EOS and the new number is 88862586.

Engine oil supplement (Part number 88862586)

 

I had that happen to me once too. The culprit was me. I slammed a big, fat cam in a 327 with a ton of lift. I used stock heads with crane valve springs and didn't check for coil bind. My cam lasted for about an hour. When I pulled it apart, it looked just like the one in the photo. Crane actually stood behind it and sent me a new one. Before I installed it, I had the spring pockets machined for the big lift.

 

use additive did the same thing on a 680 lift bbc had it ground for my sons mud drag truck it lasted less than 5 mi did all again used additive 2000 to 3000 rpm for 20 min started on 2nd season no problems

 

i had a friend that went thru 3 summit cam/lifter kits and the all did the same thing.he broke it in properly and used correct oil. i think its a cheap metal problem

 

Yes, G.M. sells something called E.O.S. again, but it's three times the cost of the old E.O.S., and they've removed certain "evil" ingredients from the formula. I used to use it myself, but now, I'd say you might as well save some $$$ and dump a can of STP on your new cam and lifters instead.

 

HAMB has an Alliance vendor with a ZDDP concentrate product. Go to vendor's list and scroll to the very bottom (alphabetical) and there you'll find ZDDPlus, then look around their site.
It's what I would use to add to a low zddp oil. I use Joe Gibbs Break In Oil to start up and break in, then I go to Amsoil Premium Protection Synthetic which has a high zddp content. If I wasn't using an oil with additional zddp, I'd add the ZDDPlus to a regular oil. I'm leary of adding to what's in my Amsoil as I understand too much zddp adversely affects the engine with respect to metallic compounds in combustion chamber deposits that can actually glow and serve sorta like a glow plug and cause destructive preignition.
Many have gone to the diesel oils. such as Shell Rotella, but they have
now reduced the zddp in those oils, except for some few companies like Amsoil, who are still selling the old high zddp for pre 2007 diesels and a new formula for 2007 and later. The new oil even costs less, presumably due to lower additive costs. Also, think about it, diesel oils are formulated and have additive packages that correspond to the use intended.
Now high rpm for a diesel is 3k what will your engine turn 6-7k? One of these additives is an anti-foaming agent and it theoretically willl require more of this additive, or a different one altogether for the high rpm engine
Think about it!
Dave

On edit: Lot to be said to agree with problems with the lifter bores also. If the previous lifters had been worn and slightly mushroomed on the bottom and were forced up and out of the block all the way up thru the bore, you can bet there are scratches in those bores.

 

Thanks, I guess that makes sense. Its nice to read stuff like this from guys like you that have done a whole lot more engines than I will ever see in my life.