OK Hamber's - I just dodged a bullet and thought I would pass along a lesson learned. I arranged to trade my running, driving, legal car for an almost complete roadster pickup project. He looked at my car, I checked out his and we agreed to an even swap when I got back from the LARS. Luckily I took lots of photos to show my wife and friends. At the show I took lots of photos of pickups and researched products to buy to complete the car. While there, my friend, a VIN inspector and police officer, suggested I request a photo of the VIN tag and he would check it out. I did, and the owner sent a photo of the "legal, titled, body tag" affixed to the firewall. My friend ran the number which revealed that the body was legally owned but it does not qualify as a VIN because the unregistered, aftermarket frame is not officially tagged. In other words, the body is legit, but a total, legal car it is not. I told the owner that I would do the deal if he had it inspected, an official VIN assigned, and a tag riveted to frame as required. That's when he started getting "squirrelly" and said he would get back to me. In the meantime I reviewed the my photos verses the photo sent to me. It shows that he attached the body tag after I photo'd the car - in effect an altered tag. So when he called up, I told him I'm out of the deal, which seemed to suit everybody. In this state, the car could be impounded and destroyed or at least could not be resold, especially out-of-state. So, lessons learned - take plenty of pictures, check out the VIN, and if a deal seems too good to be true, it probably is.
FYI... Henry Ford did not stamp a VIN on the body, it was on the frame and engine. For you to see a Model A VIN# on a car without the original banger, you would need to lift the body (Not so easy). Most people tend to rivet the number where it can be seen just in case the need to verify should arise. I DEFINITELY would not want an "Assigned" number from DMV on any of my cars. Aftermarket frame??? Geez, now you sound like "The Man"! Just kiddin'!!
A briggs body tag on an A (Even on a body that actually had one, not this!) is not any kind of an ID anyway...it simply marks a briggs built BODY (NOT the chassis or engine, which bear the serial and are effectively the car) as the #XXX copy of that body built and shipped to Ford. An extremely dim clerk in a loosely run system might allow such on a transfer, but someday either you'll sell the car into a system that actually checks or you'll have a wreck and discover your insurance does not cover your car because the serial is not a serial... And what legitimate system is going to take a pop-riveted tag in the wrong place as anything at all?? If the car doesn't have a Ford frame, it NEEDS a state assigned number, which is perfectly legit for all purposes and is the only possible legit number for a car that doesn't have any original registrable bits left.
oh..and to add fuel to the fire..there really isnt a "VIN" on a Model A..its more like register of how many were built.. the "Vin" as we know of today didnt surface until like the 60's? maybe even later.. there is not much information to be gotten from the numbers on a model A other than its place in line at the assembly factory..hell it doesnt even tell you what factory, or options or any of that info.. (origin of the body will be found in a code on the front seat rail, mine was built in twin falls minn.) and they were never stamped on the fire wall or a tag on the fire wall..the tag on the fire wall on the right side(passenger) was the ford patent numbers that cop dont know his model A'ss but he might just have a new yellow project one in his garage .. and as far as the engine matiching the frame number..pretty rare when you conciter how old that vehicle is, and where its been..my 28AR sedan had a 31 engine in it, with a trans out of a 30..the frame was an early 29, and the body an AR - 28 Tudor.. and to top it all off..some states never registered cars back than..hell some probably didnt even have plates I think you got dicked spend a night with the search function on this subject..it could take you quite a while to read up on this subject.. probably too late to save face with that A's owner on the deal
Maybe he put the tag on as he knew you were worried about it... that dosn't mean it was altered though... if you want it bad enough maybe you and him could go about making it legal and complete the trade later... Good Luck. Seth
I agree with above, if the car has a vin number on the title that matches the non-official VIN tag, it would be a legit transaction. Model A frame numbers are barely legible at the best of times and officially the body did not have a VIN tag from the factory. I think you got the wrong info. and screwed up a good deal for yourself.
for sure and a shitty stamp i could tell it wasnt legit just by that and the type of tag . besides the rivits are from harbor freight jeez
#1: Before 1966/1968 (some argue which year) cars had serial numbers. Those are used today in lieu of a VIN. #2: It's relatively easy to research the locations of the serial numbers on cars prior to 1966. Even among cars from the same manufacturer, such as GM, often no two are alike from make to make or year to year. #3: Many cars didn't use a tag at all; Cadillac into the '50s, Ford into the mid-30s, etc. often had a number stamped on the frame. Model Ts don't have a stamped number anywhere on the body or frame - the number was on the engine. The guy's car is probably registered with a title that doesn't match the frame number, and/or that number is hand-stamped on or he didn't need to have it checked before putting it on the road. It's "legit" as long as it doesn't require a VIN inspection. Meaning he could sell it to me in New York and it wouldn't matter, but in New Jersey there'd be a problem. This is why I'm really down on people buying old NY registrations and titles and using them on their cars - here's a key example of what happens if you don't do it right. You end up with a car you can't sell complete - That said, I don't see how you know the frame isn't legit, particularly from DMV info. Either the serial number comes up in the system, or it doesn't, and if it's in the system either it's active and registered, inactive and not registered, or stolen. Perhaps some systems make note of if a vehicle is salvaged or not. They don't come up as "legal body but illegal frame" - the DMV computer has no idea where that number is affixed to the car. Particularly on early cars, you're lucky if they even still have a book to look up where the location is.
Well the general consensus is pointed in the same direction. If I were you, I would be asking myself how good the deal was barring this whole vin# fiasco. Maybe revisit the deal?
first mistake...my advice..do your own leg work..most cops dont know their history when it comes to pre-60's cars, cant tell you how many need the education
+2 on that. Old Motors and Chiltons books, Krause "Standard Guide Of _______" and other books contain a wealth of info on car serial numbers, their location, what if anything can be decoded from them, etc.. With a little poking around you can buy what you need for under $20.
Closest thing to a vin number on an early Ford is a number stamped on the frame. if the car in question has a salvage title or a home built title depending on what state the title originated in it was probably issued one tag with the title and it may or may not have been attached to the frame or the firewall. Every state has a different way of doing it. As long as there is something numbered on the car somewhere that matches the title you are or would have been golden.
OK, some follow up. My friend and I both know where Henry stamped the numbers on Model A frames. We also knew that this frame was a reproduction frame - a good one at that. This state will recognize a Model A frame number as a VIN if no other vehicle has the same number, otherwise it assigns a number. The DMV then rivets a frame tag to the frame, usually in front of the firewall on the driver side. The car is then an officially, state recognized vehicle, subject to insurance, sales, etc. This vehicle was probably incorrectly titled, based on the owners possesion of the Briggs body tag. DMV folks aren't always on top of anything beyond the norm. It's still subject to impounding, and will leave to the owner(s) to sort it out before the judge. In cases where it's so screwed up that no owner can be determined, the state just destroys it to take it off the books. Tough luck to the legal owner. My friend was looking out for my over-enthusiastic interests and had no desire for a Model A. So if he mucked up the deal, it was to save me from giving away my Studebaker and save me headaches down the road. (Man, some of you guys are cynical.) Finally, the owner pitched the car to me as being completely legitimate and altered it, poorly, after I initially saw it. He never told me he was going to rivet the body tag to the firewall. He also said that this would suffice for a title. Maybe, or maybe not. Depends how sharp the DMV folks are that day. However, if I had tried to sell out of state, chances are it would raise a flag, either here or there. And I don't need any more headaches. Thanks for weighing in - I just thought I'd pass along my experience. Happy Motoring.
Yes, it has a title that leads to nothing, and any contact with an insurance need or a serious registration process will blow it out of the water. Only a factory or state issued serial has any real basis, and a title that is based on a purchased paper or a faked and entirely wrong tag like this is going to get you nailed someday, likely after an accident. If a car lacks an original number a state assigned number is the only thing possible that will remain legal and defensible. If you look at recent legal actions against streetrod builders, Broadway title, etc. you have to realize that procedures are getting steadily tighter...if you can skate it past a dumb clerk now, that doesn't mean it will work when you sell it or when the insurance claim agent checks to see if it is the vehicle he is insuring!
As a follow-up, did your friend explain if/how the car could be brought into compliance? A replacement frame with a reciept, an original body with reciept? Going in and having an assigned tag installed?
studesearch; You are overreacting, over analyzing................. LIghten up. VIN on the car, almost anywhere, stamped on a tag, stamped on the frame, whatever................... that matches the VIN on the title extablishes ownership. If that ownership isn't in question, your friend cost you a good deal, if you thought it was a good deal...........................
If the guy had bought a Harbor Frieght stamp set and a star stamp somewhere, we wouldn't be having this debate. There'd be a stamped number under the paint on the frame that matches his paperwork that would be good enough for most inspectors. Now, the guy has to find a buyer in a state that doesn't inspect the serial number on the car. NY doesn't; I'm sure there are others.
My roadster has that identical tag on the firewall, stamped with my VIN. Half the model A's on the road are running some kind of stamped tag riveted to the body for the VIN.
i have always used the model a engine numbers on that stamp pad or frame numbers. my last 29 roadster was registered from the frame did not need the body to have a vin......
man he even scratched the paint drilling the rivet holes. And somebody stole two cylinders from the motor as well
Dude that car has no tag, That things a manufacturers serial number, that thing on the firewall is not gonna fly. In Illinois he cant legally sell that car, he would be committing a felony, you need all the reciepts and origin papers for that a bill of sale and you would have to go through the bonding process, that would take you six months to year, it shouldnt and most likely wouldnt be crushed, but if you BS the thing and get caught it would be impounded and auctioned if you got a big enough bill that you couldnt float, He can bond it but then he cant sell it for three years. I would at this point take a state bonded retag over any other vin because I would know the car is sparkly clean and legal. A legal retag is about a quarter inch tall and about 2 and a half inches long. Aluminum it has about 18 to 20 numbers.
I don't see the big issue with an "assigned" vin number as long as it is a legit assigned vin number. True the vehicle may be listed as "assembled and some states show it as from the year it was inspected an the vin was assigned but it is an assembled vehicle and it probably doesn't have a lot of parts that came with it from the factory. The big issue always seems to be "Won't bring as much money when I sell it" rather then the fact that that it is a legal and legit vehicle. The main issue is having a vehicle that is legally yours and legal title and registration wise to drive or sell. The fact that it may have an assembled title or an original title isn't the real issue but that the title for the vehicle is correct for the vehicle is. The yellow roadster that the thread is about spooks me unless it could be run through the hoops first to full and well document that things are on the up and up and the owners actions show me otherwise.
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