My frame is a 1928 and that's what the title is because of that frame number. The 30 coupe body the car came with doesn't change that. If I put a 72 Vette body on it, it would still be titled as a 1928 Ford. Don't know how many times I've seen a 29 roadster with a 31 sedan title. You see lots of these, "It's easy to title" deals. I always tell them if it's that damned easy, title the car, THEN we'll talk. If they can't sign over a title, then they can't legally sell the car as anything but "Parts". In some states you've got people like Boyd who managed to get 1932 Ford titles on cars with no part on the car over a couple years old so they can get more for it. A car with a title that says 1932 Ford sells for a lot more than one that says 1996 "Special Construction"... That kind of crap has pretty much wizened up DMV departments and muddied the waters for everybody else. All most states really care about is collecting taxes, tracking vehicles, and stopping car thefts. Mostly it's the collecting taxes. The registration is so the bored cop behind you can punch you up in the computer to look for wants, warrants and no insurance... More revenues for the state.
All this craziness over what, a pickup? Jeez, many of these pickups never had a title and were never registered. They spent their lives idling along farm fields as people shoveled manure out of them. When I got mine it had no title and I simply applied for a title for a vehicle that never had one. The state presumably did a search on the VIN and when that came up blank they issued me a title. I mean it's a pickup truck, not a pre-war Mercedes mit kompressor!
IMO- your buddy hosed the deal. As long as the number matches the title- Sold! I bet I could drive that right into a California DMV & get it inspected & signed off. Most DMV employees have enough trouble finding the correct forms- they won't know where the actual number should be. They are looking for bogus numbers, not clear good numbers & not where it's placed on car. If it matches- done deal. Trust me- I've been through this. This is the same place that took 7 months to issue a YOM plate! Twice they forgot to fill out their part of form completely.
So lets say this guy goes and buys a used 1932 frame, discovers this frame has numbers, and a call to the DMV discovers those numbers are open, can that guy register the frame as a 1932? It's an original frame, just missing everything else. How about if the guy puts a Model A body on it next. Is it registered as a '32 just with a Model A body, or does the guy use his Model A's numbers? Hypothetically speaking, of course...
To answer your first question -- I have titled just a model A frame (with the numbers on the frame). Found a body some years later..... Your second question makes no sense since a model A body has no numbers. Finally who in their right mind would try to title a Model A with a later engine using the numbers on the A frame (which cannot be seen) without adding their own stamped tag somewhere with the frame numbers on it? (Officer: Let's see your VIN. (Me: Yes sir, just wait til I lift the body off...)
Hypothetically- The numbers are on the frame- never on the body. So- if you have stock 32 rails & put an "A" body on it- it's still registered as a 32. And on the same note- you could install a glass body- Brookville or hand formed Marcel body that looks nothing like a 32 & guess what? It's a legit 32 (with correct frame & numbers). Now they are trying to re-write the rules.
When I bought my '31 RDPU about 30 years ago in California it was titled by the engine number. The title matched the engine number and that was all they need to establish that it was my vehicle. The DMV told me at that time that they would not register in my name by the engine number and sent me to the CHP to have them attach a VIN plate to the door jam (and a hidden one somewhere else). I assume they are still doing it this way. Charlie Stephens
If the guy was so convinced that it was legit, why did he go and screw it up by poorly tagging it with a Briggs Body Tag? If that tag matches the title, you may have an issue down the line. I think your buddy may have saved you some headache.
On the A serial number subject, how do the resto guys do it? If the body is over the numbers stamped on the rails, they aren't going to want to tag a VIN somewhere on there. Why should I have to lift the body off to prove it unless it is thought stolen?
Agreed. I've have had NYS troopers pull me over and lecture me for not wearing seatbelts in stock 50's cars on multiple occasions (threatened tickets, but never wrote one). I finally got someone at the DMV to email the specifics on seatbelt laws to me so that I could carry it in the glovebox. I've also had DMV in TN & FL give me a hard time about pre-1973 cars from NY, with no title. That said, I would be cautious about any car with sketchy paperwork, but unless it is stolen there is ususally a legit way around it. Some research would be required to know this deal, but oh well...
this is why registration is so messed up for all of us .....because of DUMB ASSES....in most states the law reads the frame is what the car is registered too soo, technically you replace that frame under your stock 32 with one from so-cal its no longer an origional 32 ....does that make my brookville roadster an origional 32 ....i personally dont think so but according to the law it does.....then again try putting a 70 chevy frame under a 2010 truck to get out of emissions...see how johnny law likes that one ...... its like the military ......dont ask dont tell!
Studearch may have one issue that you guys don't, dealing with the NM Motor Vehicle Division. I did while living out there, it was amazing, talk to three different clerks on how to register a car without a title but with a serial number plate (factory) attached, get three different answers. The best (?) answer was that I needed to write all fifty states, all Canadian Provinces, and all Mexican states requesting a manual search of registration to determine who owned the car. At this point I called a halt, went back to work and called Santa Fe (headquarters), got a name and telephone number of the clerk that I spoke to, and wrote down all the steps he told me. LEIN, NCIC, a printout of the results, numbers inspection by a LEO, a bond of three times the value of the car, a bill of sale, good to go. Went back with all this, the MVD clerk told me that I was wrong. At this point I gave the clerk the phone number and the name of my contact in Santa Fe. End of issue. On another occasion, I did a title only transfer, sent it in from the car dealership that I worked at, along with a note that I wanted only a transfer, no plates. Received the title application back with plates. Title application showed plate fee. I called the MVD, they told me that they made a mistake, but they would not refund my money. I kept the plates, a few months later I got a letter stating that I needed to surrender the plates or put insurance on the car. I sent a note back telling them what happened, and if they would refund my money as the car was inoperative I would surrender the plates. Never heard anymore about that. It used to be that any car being registered in New Mexico from out of state had to be police or MVD employee inspected for numbers. Don't know if this has changed or not. This was the time period of 79-88, but I can't imagine that they got any better since then.......
What if you have a title signed by the previous owner and a car but on the frame no numbers are readable, and only 2 coincide on the motor because the others are so pitted you cannot read them,and the State inspector will not sign off on the inspection cause they cannot make out the numbers... Would you get a Body tag and stamp the numbers your self, and wait for the little old lady who makes you read the VIN to her while she holds the title? And lets say that your in the middle of putting another frame under it,a FACTORY FRAME mind you, and you are doing away with the banger and running another motor in its place.. Would you just jump thru the hoops of getting a state assigned VIN .. Oh and its a 31 Model A Coupe
The tag is a moot point and means shit, many inspectors know it, we know it. If the state issued a title for the thing with clear numbers it is fine! When was the last time you were pulled over and forced to lift your A body off the frame to show the serial? The cop wants "license and insurance sir"
The tag on the Model a says body number Briggs. Where did this tag come from. Looks to me that a Vin # or frame # would be completley different. My DMV is going to regester by the frame #. One look at the shitty body # tag by DMV would raise a bunch of red flags. Sounds like you got good advice from your buddy.
I agree with your last line but most states DO NOT follow the frame deal, they only know modern VINs and are ignorant of our early stuff.
Not trying to be a jerk but I don't get what the big deal is. Why can't you trade and then get an assigned tag when you get home? If nothing's on the hot sheet then what's the prob?
The tag in the picture is a body number attached by the subcontractor that manufactured the body for Ford. The tags are available unstamped from the people that sell reproduction parts. It is not the number used for registration. Charlie Stephens
I can tell you guys this, there is no uniform code as far as all of the above is concerned, each state is different, know your state, Not to be a target for the pissed, but the days of re tagging your own car with what you want are ending fast. If you are in the market, know your shit, if you dont you may be committing a crime. You might be buying some other guys bag of troubles. For the most part... we are amateurs at this vin junk, a lot of states are putting an emphasis on training and detection of auto data, some are checking shows and doing traffic stops. know your shit, its not worth a trip to the farm. Check under Illinois titles for info, my state is a mess over this, we been doin a lot of blah blah about it.
Hell yes. I nice new shiny Briggs body serial number tag. Take it to the local trophy shop and have it engraved. Rivet it to the firewall, and drive the piss out of it.
Why would you give the trooper permission to approach the car, to do the inspection, until you made sure the coffee was hot, the donut dish was full and that there was no doubt in advance that he could read the numbers?
Don't say it's not the number used for registration, say you have no personal knowledge of that being done. It's been done............................. Since most VINs in the early years evolved from the MOTOR NUMBER, here in my neck of the woods, when a car was retrieved from a junk yard and the motor was gone, the dealers were authorized to assign a VIN of their choice, the only restriction being that it couldn't be e duplicate. The number on the title, VIN, may very well be the phone number of the dealer's girlfriend at the time. In Kansas, where dealers were authorized to assign VINs for fifty years, well into the 90s. A car was sold, the paperwork was submitted to the state and a title was issued. On some, the VIN was handwritten with paint and artist brush. It was the way it was done. Perfectly legit. It was common to see Ks titles with the body serial number on the cowl plate used as the VIN. You boys talking about taking the body off to verify the Motor Number stamped there are pissing in the wind. Everybody I know has another plate somewhere accessable with the VIN stamped on it. EVERYBODY. For that matter, when the motor is changed out, that don't change the number on the title, it's still the old original motor number. It's still legit. I personally bought two cars from Ks in the eighties with Ks title with VIN of only five digits. After a VIN inspection by Colorado DMV the state of Co issued me a title. I still have one of those cars. There will never be any issues with it because the Title was issued by the state and they don't make mistakes. Take a gander at the title below. The last time that car was sold the "motor number was upgraded to read "VIN" on the new title, and a tag was affixed to the body. It had to be so, because the insurance agent wanted to see a VIN when he looked at the car. Of course that don't mean that's how everybody does it, or should do it. That's merely an example of how it was done on one car at one particular time.
Every car I've ever built or will ever build has a stock frame and the VIN is stamped in it right from the factory or has a tag on the body. All I did was restore an old car. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.
How about a Henry's Model A on an aftermarket deuce frame, with a SBC that has the Model A's serial numbers stamped on the block where it once said "HECHO EN MEXICO" and legitimate title and registration?
Studearch is partly correct on this one, the wonderfull world of NM DMV. I think I had that same conversation with the same vin/ cop guy he did. NM will officially only recognize factory vins or official state issued vins. Any car with a vin put on the car by ANYONE except a factory or state can be impounded and destroyed. Putting a vin on a car is considered a felony here so buying a title and stamping the numbers on yourself can get you in big trouble if you get caught and you can kiss your car goodbye, not worth the chance. The PU might not of been SOL .If the PU had a legit title with the numbers on it already they MIGHT have excepted it, I know of one hot rod with a NM title with a body code as a vin, someone not to with it used the number somewhere to title the car in the past and NM dmv excepted it. They are not expert on factory vins so if the see the number they usally take it if the title matches. The only time I've seen it questained is when they see it held on with "pop" rivits or screws, hammered rivits pass no problem. Go figure. Sometimes cases like this here in NM it's easier sometimes to get one titled with no vin or no title, we do it all the time. Aftermarket frames, bodies that never had a vin, the state recognises that and will issue a vin. You do have to provide proof of origin of the parts however, i.e. recietes for the frame, engine, ect. That can be tough to do unless they all came with it if your buying a complete, finished car. They require that to prove the car was built and not a titled car with a vin removed. I've thrown some titles away that came with cars and started from scatch, sometimes it's easier and cheaper then cleaning up a messed up title. By the way Studearch, unless they changed in the last year or so NM doesn't rivit the number on, they put a sticker on with the number. They also suggest that you go ahead and stamp that number in your frame to it will be more "permanate". Go figure.
I edited this down, If the state of origin issued a title it would be legal under state/US Law, plus, since a Model A NEVER had a VIN, your argument is a moot point, I would love to live there and have a lawyer pal fuck with teh DMV on this one.
so your friend is a VIN inspector that saw a tag on a firewall with an original Model A number and said it was good for the body but not the frame.... i hope people don't actually pay for this kind of advice, model A bodies were never numbered. but you've been told that a dozen times already, so i guess i'm just adding another post count
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