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Why Neg. Ground vs. Pos. Ground?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Joe G, Jul 30, 2010.

  1. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 31,643

    The37Kid
    Member

    Why aren't there more cars in flames?
     
  2. zzford
    Joined: May 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,822

    zzford
    Member

    Personally, I think positive ground systems are un-natural. Like an engine with five cylinders.
     
  3. DD COOPMAN
    Joined: Jul 25, 2009
    Posts: 1,122

    DD COOPMAN
    Member

    Most, if not all, SUCCESSFUL radial aircraft engines have an ODD NUMBER of cylinders, OR...even numbers of miltiple rows of ODD-NUMBERED cylinders. DD[​IMG]
     
  4. lippy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2006
    Posts: 6,848

    lippy
    Member
    from Ks

    Hey DD. Was that Bobcat pos or neg ground? And how was it grounded to plywood? LOL. Lippy
     
  5. DD COOPMAN
    Joined: Jul 25, 2009
    Posts: 1,122

    DD COOPMAN
    Member

    Now THAT's a really good question. I understand that it all worked as well as it did because everything was grounded to BAMBOO ... as in "Bamboo Bomber". Also, the Jakes each have an odd number of cylinders. DD
     
  6. RichG
    Joined: Dec 8, 2008
    Posts: 3,919

    RichG
    Member

    Ouch. I guess that's why I shouldn't write when I'm tired... I'll take my spanking now:p You are correct sir, I was completely FUBAR.:( I shall now perform a strategic retreat into my secret lair beneath my mobile home, refusing to show my face except to lash myself mercilessly with ACX cable.
     
  7. Fenders
    Joined: Sep 8, 2007
    Posts: 3,921

    Fenders
    Member

    No need to repent, I think some on here don't get "tongue in cheek" comments.....
     
  8. lippy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2006
    Posts: 6,848

    lippy
    Member
    from Ks

    We always called the Jacobs "shakey jakes". :D And also carry a baking sheet to keep ground pollution to a minimum. When talking about being grounded, that's not a good thing for an airplane right? Lippy, (sorry for the de-rail) in Ks.
     
  9. lippy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2006
    Posts: 6,848

    lippy
    Member
    from Ks

    Ok, so now ground to sky lightning is positive ground and sky to ground lightning is negative ground right? Lippy
     
  10. RichG
    Joined: Dec 8, 2008
    Posts: 3,919

    RichG
    Member

    Electrical humor: elusive as math humor but more obscure:D
     

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  11. DD COOPMAN
    Joined: Jul 25, 2009
    Posts: 1,122

    DD COOPMAN
    Member

    I think what you're really trying to say here, and you're correct, is that the well-lubricated cookie sheets are only USED when the "Shakeys" ARE, in fact, "grounded".

    Interestingly, about ten years ago we built a new shop with a second story for parts storage...MOSTLY for old car work and parts storage. We also designed a trap door into the floor of the second story, with a heavy-duty winch centered above the trap door. We designed the trap door to be large enough to hoist a Shakey Jake through it. Some of us are just sick. I really enjoy your "take" on things, Lippy. DD [​IMG]
     
  12. DD COOPMAN
    Joined: Jul 25, 2009
    Posts: 1,122

    DD COOPMAN
    Member

    Soooo ... what do we do about "cloud to cloud" lightning? DD
     
  13. 1971BB427
    Joined: Mar 6, 2010
    Posts: 9,093

    1971BB427
    Member
    from Oregon

    House wiring is not negative ground. House wiring is AC (alternating current) so there is no positive or negative. It's "neutral grounded" not negative grounded. Current simply flows from either hot line to neutral, or hot to hot in single phase 208/240v or 3 phase.
    Edison wanted DC for homes as he touted it as safer, but lost out to Tessela's AC power.
     
  14. 296 V8
    Joined: Sep 17, 2003
    Posts: 4,666

    296 V8
    BANNED
    from Nor~Cal

    Best to keep all cars and trucks grounded the same, don’t need them welding to each other if they touch. :rolleyes::D
     
  15. 1971BB427
    Joined: Mar 6, 2010
    Posts: 9,093

    1971BB427
    Member
    from Oregon

    No, the earth wont conduct electricity in either AC or DC unless certain things happen.
    In the case of a DC system one part of the system needs to be bonded to the earth. Doesn't matter which one, as long as it's bonded it will flow some current from the other pole. The dryer and cleaner the earth is, the less chance it will fow as current travels through impurities or moisture, so no chance of flow even when bonded if it's clean and dry.
    Same thing for AC systems. The reason you can get shocked by touching something that's grounded or in contact with earth is because almost all AC systems are bonded, especially residential systems. So if every house on the block has a ground rod tied to their neutral buss, and a water pipe bond, then the odds are you could probably read voltage to ground with a meter from a hot leg to some good damp soil. But if the soil is extremely dry and sandy it's hard to get a good earth ground and you need to use a much longer ground rod, or a ground ring, and maybe even Bentonite around the ring or rod to even get good contact with the earth.
     
  16. OahuEli
    Joined: Dec 27, 2008
    Posts: 5,243

    OahuEli
    Member
    from Hawaii

    That's pretty one way thinking! (sorry, I couldn't RESIST it, even though I had AMPle feeling people might not not get WATT I was talking about.):D
     
  17. 51NINETYEIGHT
    Joined: Jul 29, 2008
    Posts: 284

    51NINETYEIGHT
    BANNED

  18. DD COOPMAN
    Joined: Jul 25, 2009
    Posts: 1,122

    DD COOPMAN
    Member

    "In the case of a DC system one part of the system needs to be bonded to the earth." Huh.......? The DC system in most of my vehicles DO NOT have a big, long cable dragging-along behind the car BONDING it to the earth. When a DC system becomes somehow bonded to "true earth", you end-up with a "ground fault". Ground faults can be difficult little buggers to find when they occurr, as I found in my experience with 48v DC control circuits and 432v DC UPS / power distribution systems. DD
     
  19. imnezrider
    Joined: Apr 27, 2010
    Posts: 199

    imnezrider
    Member

    I think this question "may" be similar to the one I've heard since a kid. Which way does current flow in a DC circuit...positive to negative or the other way around? Maybe this has been definitively settled...if so, please post an explanation (not a theory).
     
  20. tomslik
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 2,161

    tomslik
    Member

    here's the real answer, in-car record players.
    they didn't want the devil to speak to you in the car...














    ;)
     
  21. AlbuqF-1
    Joined: Mar 2, 2006
    Posts: 909

    AlbuqF-1
    Member
    from NM

    Someone answered that on the first page... electrons flow from Neg to Pos. Current = electron flow.
     
  22. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 8,642

    noboD
    Member

    You guys are giving me a headache.
     
  23. RichG
    Joined: Dec 8, 2008
    Posts: 3,919

    RichG
    Member

    Conductive materials have 1-3 electrons (negative charges) in their valence shell (outer layer or "orbit"). When one of those electrons is pulled from the valence shell the atom has more positive charges (protons) making the atom a positive ion. Still with me? M'kay, now that ion will attract an electron from the atom nearest it, causing it to become neutral once again, thus confirming that electron flow (or the negative charge) moves from negative to positive. Given a chain of these events of a high magnitude we considers something like 10 to the hundredth power of those electrons moving to be a coulomb... coulombs being the base measurement of amperage... okay, not really, it's actually all done by cherubs smoking herb and cruising in subatomic lowriders.
     
  24. ablebob
    Joined: Jul 29, 2009
    Posts: 76

    ablebob
    Member

    Does the tin foil hat get connected to the positive or the negative ?
     
  25. Electricity basically comes down to voodoo and black majic.
     
  26. A buzz is not unusual. It does not mean anything is wrong. All the old tube type radios needed an oscillator to make the radio work. I believe it had to do with making the transformers work. You can't do that with strict DC, they had to turn it into either AC or a pulsating DC to make a transformer function. Much like the points making your ignition coil (transformer) function by repeated collapsing of the magnetic field.
    The pulsating current from the oscillator also made the distinctive sound that many of us fondly remember from the tube radio days. I miss that sound. It gave AM radio listening much of it's "atmosphere".
    Today's FM on "tubeless" radios sounds so sterile to me. Too filtered, scrubbed, and cleansed. AM radio songs coming in over a tube type radio is like a wayback machine to me.


    CORRECTION- It has been pointed out to me that the correct word is VIBRATOR instead of oscillator for the source of the buzz sound. I don't know why I grabbed the wrong word, or how I got that wrong. A vibrator uses DC current to make pulsating DC so a transformer can function. It used to be a common item in tube-type electronics that run on DC. I forgot the correct word for a moment. Must have been a long time ago...
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2010
  27. RichG
    Joined: Dec 8, 2008
    Posts: 3,919

    RichG
    Member

    I've answered many a call from guys on the floor just like you:p
     
  28. DD COOPMAN
    Joined: Jul 25, 2009
    Posts: 1,122

    DD COOPMAN
    Member

    So ........ this is the guy you call when YOU need an electrician? DD
     

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  29. 1950ChevySuburban
    Joined: Dec 20, 2006
    Posts: 6,185

    1950ChevySuburban
    Member Emeritus
    from Tucson AZ

    Some of you are actually right on the money! I'm impressed!
    Did you know that DC current flows predominantly through a copper wire along the outer edges of the wire, and AC flows mostly through the center part or the wire?
    That's why Romex is solid core, and DC wires are multi-stranded. More strands, more surface area, less resistance.
     
  30. In the early days of electricity there was much arguing about which way it flowed.
    Most thought it came from the positive terminal. That thought stayed for many years.
    There were also constant discussions of which direction was best for autos and their electrical systems.

    I don't know why the Neg ground won out eventually, but it simply became the "usual" while the other Positive ground became the oddball.

    Sometime along the way, some scientist disagreed with Edison and pointed out that the electrons actually flowed FROM the Negative to the Positive.
    That made the arguments even sillier because everyone who had reasons to advocate Neg ground, were arguing from the wrong side. Ditto for the advocates of Pos Ground.

    The direction of flow was found to be opposite of what had been believed for a long time. No notable differences were found between the use of one or the other.
     

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