New oil eating old engines

It's called CYA... cover your ass... I'm not saying there is or isn't a problem. I think that ZDDP is cheap insurance if you're running flat tappets.

 

Hey guys, I don't want to be a part of a pissing contest! So with that in mind, WHICH SPECIFIC Alliance vendor has the ZDDP additive, and does Pennzoil VR-1 racing oil have enough zinc in it to keep me out of any possible trouble? I want to run the Penzoil in my old cars and add the additive to my diesel. Thanks! Bob

 

Too much drama on this deal for me.

Could someone just state the facts and let the rest go?

Shissssssh....................................

1940 Willys Coupe

 

Whoops, thats Valvoline, not Pennzoil. Long night here at work. Too many assholes.

 

http://www.zddplus.com/

straight off of the Alliance page.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/?page_id=176

 

ooops

 

CJ diesel oil has less than CI oil, but still is a decent level. Wal-Mart sells SF rated Accel brand 10W-40 marked "for pre 88 cars" it has the zinc. Word a few years ago was EOS was reformulated with rumors about the zinc level being monkeyed with, would like to know how it is now.

 

ooops

 

No drama, just quick facts. VALVOLINE VR-1 racing has all the zinc you'll ever need

 

Thanks Hotroddon-I went to the local parts store and bought 2 cases VALVOLINE VR-1. My W-block Chevys will enjoy it!

 

Its not just zinc that is needed itis the entire molecule zddp...racing oil may be ok provided you like to change your oil frequently....product zddplus allows owners to use whatever current sm oil they like conventional or sythentic with no worrys of having 1,800 ppm of zddp.


companies such as crower-isky-erson cam companies carry it....I know this for a fact!!!!

Also available from Mac Antiques and Eastwood just to name a few.

Your gambling on wear issues without it.

denniskirban@yahoo.com

companies like crower isky and erson would not be offering it, if it wasn't an issue.

 

For his rebuilt flat tappet 305, a quality racing oil that has pre-ban levels of zinc and phosphorous will protect his motor for 5,000 mile oil changes just fine. And that is also a fact. In fact it does not even need to be a racing oil, as only certain weights of oil were affected by the lowered levels and many better 10/40's and 20/50's on the market, like Castrol GTX are still at the same levels they always were, or very close. I have put well over 100,000 miles on flat tappet motors in daily drivers using these type of oils in recent years with no problems what so ever.

 

From what I've read, true racing oil's additive package is dead by 1500 miles. SM rated oil doesn't have zinc, & I haven't seen non SM oil in quite a while other than the Wal-Mart Accel SF 10W-40.

 

I have a 50 flathead 8BA,i am going to change to brad penn oil,15 40.I am reading that this oil has enough zinc in it so i dont need to add zinc.What can happen if you add to much zinc? my engine is a rebuild and has 7,000 miles on it.This topic is confusing with alot of ideas floating about,should i do this swap...flathead guys opinions please

 

The Brad Penn should be good, as for "to much zinc" there has been a lot of talk about it out there on the internet, some say it'll create "corrosive" properties in the oil but can't seem to explain this with any detail. Others seem to say that you can't have to much.

 

Thanks zman,i was going to use rotella but with all the talk about how is lost quality i will go with the brad penn,any thoughts on the 15 40 type oil for a san diego climate?

 

What have you been running? What does the engine builder recommend? He's the one that did the bearing clearances.

 

That sounds like me & my Dad! He'd say "oil doesn't wear out" & I'd say "Yeah but it gets contaminated & the additives wear out, same result!" Used to have to hound him to change oil on anything close to reasonable periods.

 

I have been running penzoil 10/30 with a zinc additive.I bought the car from a dealer in nor cal ,i tried to get the previous owners info so i could ask him about the rebuild but the dealer would not get back to me,pisses me off,because i wanted to know the same things.the engine runs beautifully,drive it all over the place.I am going to try the dealer again.

 

When the issues where first raised about the reduction of zddp in gasoline motor oil articles recommend diesel rotella oil......which at the time did have a higher content of zddp...the common phrase most writers dwell on is zinc when in truth it is a big long chemical term shortened to zddp.

Problem is with diesel oils it has stuff for soot control you don't want to be putting in your gas engine...especially a high dollar example......now it don't matter, as diesel oils under the current classification has reduced levels of zddp.

If the oil has the star burst on the back AND READS SM that is the latest oil for gasoline engines and it is that oil that the levels of zddp have been greatly reduced. They have gradually reduced the ppm of zddp to protect warranties on catalytic converters. Its the wonderful government again in action....I am sure many of you remember 100 proof octane fuel at the pump which is now also long gone.

Flat tappet set ups with extreme pressure points need high levels of zddp true you may not see the harm right away but eventually wear will take place.....

Here is an interesting side note.....my source took the original motor oil from a 400 mile ZO6 Corvette..(I think it was a 2005 model)..had it tested to see what levels of zddp was in that oil from the factory......it registered 3,000 ppm......its there for a reason...

Many performance engine rebuilders if you check around have stopped altogether rebuilding flat tappet set ups and try to talk customers into roller set ups....they don't want any wear issues to come back and haunt them.

Its true certain oils that lack the API seal (starburst) can have higher levels of zddp or zinc as most readers call it....but do they tell you how much?

Back before oil companies started to reduce the levels under the SF category (1988) they had around 1,800 ppm......

Plenty of options exist and I am not here to say one is better than the other. My point is simply this, if you use any oil that has the star burst on the back and it reads SM the levels of zddp are way under what was in the oils back in the late 1980s.....

Ask any engine builder the importance of zddp....

I sell direct to Crower cam, Isky Cam, and Erson cam.....these companies are all well respected in the field with long history......

I think its the September issue of Auto Trader Classic Car and Parts has an article on this very subject.

It doesn't matter if its conventional oil or synthetic SM specs are the same. You also need to realize, zddp levels decrease faster during the first 1,000 miles another to pick an option that is not marginal to start with.

Before all these issues were clearly defined some engine rebuilder though the problem was cheap foreign lifters and cam shafts etc...and I am sure that was some of the issues, and since oil changes happen gradually it was difficult to pinpoint let alone be under the impression that oil was no longer backwards compatible.

There is a reason some oil companies now push they got more zinc (zddp) for older engines....
for the simple reason its true....(they want your business)

That two letter code is now very important to any flat tappet engine owner especially one that has been modified etc.

Just my thoughts

denniskirban@yahoo.com

think about this 4-5 years ago did you ever hear of some of the new brands of oil that have now entered the main stream market place? I doubt it......

 

I just lost a 350 to a flat cam... bought it running in a truck and the oil was just changed so i kept it in 1,000 miles later FLAT CAM!! DAM!! wish i would of known about this sooner o'well

 

Its ashame....some times it happens gradually and wear is not noticeable until tis too late. Other issue is not every lifter wears the same.....

ZDDP it wasn't put in the oil for 60 plus years for nothing.....

denniskirban@yahoo.com

 

ooops

 

If you email me I can supply a few sources in Canada that have ZDDPlus. That product allows you to use any current SM oil conventional or snythetic in a normal 4-6 quart capacity and have 1,800 ppm of zddp which is where it was back under the SF category in 1988......Everytime they bumped the code they took more and more ZDDP out of the oil.....its called gradualism....

Diesel oils has stuff for soot control not the ideal thing to put in your gas engine.....few years back when the issues were first raised magazine articles suggested diesel oils as an alternative.....

denniskirban@yahoo.com

I would not be too quick to use a Walmart brand of oil.....especially if it lacks the API star burst....kind of risky if you ask me....

 

It's not wal-Mart brand but Accel. I've seen 10W-40 Accel @ other places, but it was SM rated. The SJ diesel is supposed to have a good level, just not as good as CI.

 

My error on stating Accel was a Walmart brand......frankly I never seen it anywhere else but Walmart.....

Nothing against Walmart, as any suppleir would love to have them as a customer since its all about numbers and they move some impressive numbers....

You are correct if it states it is SM your at approximately 600-800 ppm of zddp.... the level it was before reduction levels began was under SF 1988 time frame at 1,800 ppm of zddp.

denniskirban@yahoo.com

 

I've used nothing but El-Cheapo Resolute brand motor oil sold at Fleet Farm for years. I am cheapskate to the max, while others think 5 dollar a quart oil and 15-20 dollar additives are cheap I think that is ridiculously expensive when I have been buying oil at 12-13 dollars for two gallons for years. I decided instead of listening to a bunch of hearsay I would email the company that actually creates the brand of oil I use. That company is Citgo. I got a nice response back from Citgo stating the following:

So there you have it, you don't need 5 dollar a quart oil or special additives. All you need is 14 dollars for 2 gallons Resolute brand diesel motor oil. I suppose it could be sold under different names in other parts of the country.

 

First the popular additives that have the proper levels of zddp sell for $10 a bottle.
AT $10 a bottle you can buy any oil that you the consumer can easily find and one that you have always used and need not look any further or "gamble" on diesel oil.

Diesel oil has ingredients for soot control....I find it hard to believe that any one with a high dollar engine would skimp on oil or risk switching from oil for gas engines and go with oil for diesel engines.

Plenty of options exist.....the statement from Citgo says it all.....they have reduced the levels of zddp....so, the simple solution is to add it back to the best oil or oil you like and eliminate any worries.

In the Corvette world some of them still think the entire zddp issue is a myth!

I personally know of 4 cam companies that realize the importance of zddp and use a product that I am familar with. (Reason I know this I sell to them). They wouldn't be doing this if the oils out there was not affecting their cams!

denniskirban@yahoo.com

I wold think most owners would spend the $10 to make sure the zddp levels where adequate with the brand of oil they have always used or find readily available.

 

On another note I just saw photo I guess of oyur car...my cousin has 2 of them think its a Areo Willys? Been sitting awhile he had one when he was young and got these a few years back to restore one. One is some sort of rare model not sure what....I am guessing as to the vintage 1953-54 maybe?

Am I close on my guess?

denniskirban@yahoo.com

 

I am not like most owners I have very little invested in my cars/trucks. My oil of choice was the cheapest stuff I can find. Sure to most folks an extra 10 bucks for some additive isn't all that much. However I made less than the poverty line last year. Ten dollars extra for an oil change I can do for 15 bucks normally is too much. I can buy a gallon and a half of oil for 10 bucks. I drive on lots and lots of dirt roads, combine this with old school cartridge oil filters my oil needs to be changed a lot. I usually change my oil at 1500 miles or less depending on how dry it is. I am no oil expert so I have not the foggiest idea what harm soot control can do to a gasoline engine but since the oil gets changed often I figure it can't do as much harm as say not having enough Zddp.

Yep your real close. It is a 53 Willys Aero Lark. Has a L-head 161 six cylinder. Not a real common car. It needs a bit of work to be really road worthy. I take it out for short trips down to the lake or to my parents house.