Hi, I have a Windsor in my 46 Ford which came with the chassis when I bought the project. I was told it was a 302 but it has 289 stamped on the inlet manifold just in front of the carb. It has old school script stamped on the rocker covers "power by Ford" and the "F" continues over the "ord". It looks pretty stock. How can you tell whether it's 289 0r 302 as a complete motor i.e without stripping it down.
The differences between a 289 and 302 are negligible, mainly the 302 stroke is .13 longer. The actual differences are mainly limited to the crankshaft and the rods. Parts that interchange 100% include the block, heads, I & E manifolds, complete valvetrain, etc. Ford even mixed up the parts in transition years. Some folks claim that the 302 blocks have .020 longer cylinders, might be true might not, but IMO it is more than obvious that it does not matter even if it is true, (even with a stroker). There are a few changes in "5.0" 302s, but still, it is very, very close to a 289.
This is Fords best kept secret. If you look directly behind the intake manifold at the top of the block you will see a recessed area if its a 289 and if its flat all across the top its a 302. Another way is to pull the starter and you will see a stamp that says 289 or 302 on the side of the block.
look between the starter and the oilpan from underneath the numbers are stamped there that will tell you all you need to know.
If the block has 289 casting marks it is most likely a 289, if the casting marks say 302 it is probably a 302, but it could be a 289 if it is a "transition motor" I cant remember if this is for 67 or 68 model year...
Strike the word "excellent" from my previous post. The article have numerous editing issues, but there is still some good info in there.
you cannot put a 302 crank in a 289 block.... The rod will not clear the bottom of the cylinder casting on the block.... A 302 block has a milled spot on the bottom of the cylinder castings to clear the rod... Then you have the 289 balancer and flywheel that are 28 oz. and some of the 302 are 28 oz. Then ford went to 50 oz. balancers .... a 28 oz. crank will not work with a 50oz balancer or flywheel and the same is true for a 50oz crank it doesn't work with a 28 oz balancer or flywheel....
My son put a stock 302 50 oz crank in a stock 289 block (.030 over) a while back, no problems at all. This is the first I have ever heard about milling differences between a 289 and a 302 block, I have had these blocks side bt side, admitadly I wasen't lookig for this milled area, but I didn't see it. I am not so bold to outright insist you are wrong about this point because I don't know every damn thing, but I an pretty sure about it. (like about 99.999%).
Thanks guys, that's awesome info and exactly what I needed, so I'll check at the rear of the block and behind the starter. This motor is in unknown condition but looks in good shape, I've got it wired basically with just the wire from distributor to coil, from coil to battery, battery to starter and battery to earth. I have a cut off switch on the battery to coil wire and a push button switch on a wire connecting the two poles on the starter. So tonight's the night we'll see if it starts. Thanks again.
I know a guy from another forum who is also in Australia, he would love to have those "Powered By Ford" valve covers if your not going to use them. I was going to send him a pair I had but I can't seem to find them. He said that the "Windsor" engines were only available for 2 years down there so parts are scarce, including the stock covers.
I like both 289's & 302's, but I had a really nice running 289 that was a just great running engine, it was balanced and used a 289 solid lifter hi-po cam and it would just spin those r.p.m's right up and took alot of abuse at the drag strip for years. Jon
Your friend isn't looking too hard. There's 2 windsors in my shed, plus another in the back yard. The "Power By Ford" covers are relatively easy to come by.....but then last time I bought a set was about 5 or 6 years ago for $2. Swap meets would yield a half dozen of the engines, let alone any printed classifieds or Australian ebay.
Yes you can....I did it, and she runs great! Definatly true about the 28 and 50 oz balance though. Ford lightened the cranks when they went with the 50oz balancers, if you screw that up you're out an engine. I used a 66 289 block, bored .030 over, put an 89 "5.0" crank in it, put gt-40p heads torn off an later 90s explorer, and connecting rods off a 69' 302. Some mild machine work (primarily just reconditioning work, rods, bore, hone, align hone, deck) and it went together like any other normal small block ford.
Well I have to go by what he tells me because admittedly I don't know jack shit first hand. He is a "forum" friend who seems pretty well connected on the racing scene etc, but who knows...... maybe he is wrong.
FYI: I just rebuilt the early '65 numbers-matching 289 to my Mustang. The Mustang publications out there would have you believe that a 289-302 block is 'junk' if it has to be bored .30 over. I discussed this with my machine shop guy and he said that was 'bunk'. Otherwise why are there .60 over pistons available in engine kits? As long as I was not planning on racing the car, it would be fine. I was worried about ruining my block, but I went ahead. It runs fine and has excellent power. It runs a little warmer, but I uprated to a bigger radiator and a HiPo water pump. My machinist said sleeving these engines is no sweat and makes a stronger block.
The Ford Windsor engines were the first to use "thin wall castings", if you need to go bigger than .040" on the bores you need to sonic check them make sure that the cylinder walls aren't too thin (core shifting also happens on occasion while the block is being cast thus causing sections of the cyl walls to be even thinner). Going over .030" you also run the risk of having a engine that overheats
Guys I spotted a website for a business in NSW (Aust) that sells the Power by Ford covers new $120/pair. Ok I went to start it last night and the starter won't engage the ring gear- so after speaking to the F100 wrecker who I bought the starter from (has a 51 F1 project waiting for some lovin'), I've identified it's a later C4 (dipstick goes into the pan) and it should have either 157 or 164 teeth on the ring gear........well it's got 167 teeth.......I marked it every 10 and counted it 7 or 8 times. So there's reference to 167 tooth on the "interweb" but no real info. Any ideas? Thanks again for the info.
The 289 and 302 look the same on the outside. Some of the first 302 used the 289 block but they had issues with piston slap. So Ford extended the extended the bottom of the bore shirt to reduce the piston slap. Both engines have a 4 inch bore with the 289 having a 2.87 stock and the 302 having a 3.00 stock. Both the 289 and the 302 until mid 1981 had a 28 oz. balance. then the 302 went to a 50 oz. balance If you pull the starter and check the casting numbers- C5AE-E, C5OE-C, C6AE-C, C5AE-E they are 289 casting numbers. C8OE-A, C8TE-B, C9TE-C, D1OE-AA, D1TE-AA, D4DE-AA, D5ZY-AA They are 302 castings. And other way to til if the aluminum tag is still bolt to the intake. that tag with give you the year and size of the engine. It is ok to use 289 internals in a 302 block but not 302 internals in a 289 block because of the shorter bore skirt and the longer stock of the piston. If you happen to open up the bottom of the motor look for a "1M or a "2M' casted on the crank. If its a 1M it ios a 289 and if it a 2M it a 302. It should be on the first through behind the front main bearing. 1
...and Windsors were sold in Australia for more than 2 years. I have two sets of those rocker covers myself.
I just gave away a set of those valve covers, I couldnt find anyone to pay any kind of money for them.
This info is correct. I have the Ford Manuals, and this is the same as found in the manual. Thanks fulmacett
Hate to be "THE GUY", but this thread is full of mis-information. Early 289s had a 5 bolt bellhousing pattern. Later units had the 6 like the 302s. An early 28oz 302 crank is completely OK to use in a 289 block if 302 rods are used. 302 and 289 pistons are interchangeable. I also just built a 5.0 roller block with a 260 ( same as 289 ) crankshaft with the oil slinger turned down and 260 ( same as 289 ) rods. A 302 is basically a stroked 289. Same block, same piston. The extra stroke was made up for by shortening the rod from 5.155" to 5.090". The short cylinder stuff is not holding water with me since there are 347s on the road with 289 blocks.
Im a chevy guy but have a 1972 ford 302 motor pullled out of a '72 van sitting in my garage What is a 1972 302 complete motor worth $$$ as a core? Got a edelbrock torker manifold on it to whats that worth $$$ ??
I call BS on the crank issue,done WAY to many builds putting 302 rotating assemblies in 289 blocks.I also call BS on overbores causing heating issues.I ran an 11.5 to 1, +.060 289 for about 11 years on the street with a stock radiator,have built several with +.030 and +.040 289s,302s and 351Ws,NEVER had any over heating issues!!I've been building these Windsors since the 60s and feel they are good engines,the 347 in my 65 Comet went 10.60s-10.70s consistently,now runs a mild 418W at 10.30s!! ROY.
Some info on casting numbers can be found in this book: http://www.mre-books.com/interchange/interchange2.html
There's some strange small block ford info on this site for whatever reason . . . Its like bench racing/urban legend/book knowledge meets real world experience sometimes. I built a 302 for a friend of mine using some leftover parts from the shop I worked at. Roundy round .040" over 350 claimer pistons we were going to toss out and the guy already had a wore out 289 so he had the block bored to 4.040 and paid $40 for a late model 5.0 crank and had the stock 289 rods opened to fit the .927 pins. He did spring for a reduced based circle hyd roller cam but used a stock set of 5.0 roller lifters/spider/dogbones and drilled and tapped the block for the 2 holddown bolts in the spider. I ported the stock 289 heads and with a victor jr and 750dp he ran consistent 7.50s in the 1/8 with a t5 on the motor. I think he had maybe $1500 in the whole motor and drove it on the street often . . . never any problems with overheating. If you are real crazy, the old factory stock/NMRA trick was to run a 255 crank since its the same as a late model 302 but has hollowed throws and of course has a ford stamping but is several lbs lighter.
also, if memory serves me correctly a 289 uses a 3 bolt lower pully and a 302 uses a 4 bolt lower......john
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