I'm well aware of dipping, blasting, electrolysis and molasses. Dipping is way too expensive. Blasting can be expensive or messy if I do it myself. That leaves electrolysis and molasses. My roadster body has been sitting outside (in a tree) for the last 50 years. It has pitted rust. Not quite rot, but getting there. Will either of the last 2 methods clean it up? If so, how long does each panel need to sit in the solutions? Maybe I can combine one of those methods and light blasting? Any thoughts on the subject are greatly appreciated!
I don't know how you'd soak a body in molasses but you might get a door and deck in there. Electrolytic, same/same. That leaves metal prep (also a mess and you better work fast) and blasting at home. I've been told you can buy soda for blasting now. Can't say for sure. Blasting sheetmetal that pitted will take patience and time to avoid warpage. I'm sure with the enviro nazis you have on that coast dipping carries a mega premium. What about in a nearby state? Just askin. Metal prep and acid treatments at home will require a commitment in time to avoid seeing it all turn orange within a few hrs but it could be done. Soak in straight metal prep and rinse with really hot water, dry with compressed air, spray on a conversion coating or epoxy like real soon. Try a spot or 2 and see. Some have used muradic acid with success but the fumes can be toxic so proceed with caution. I applaud your desire to save it. Hope this was helpful.
It seems like you have a perfectly sound and even coating of rust. It's like a poster child for POR. Why not knock off any loose rust with a wire brush and spray with POR? The POR can be topcoated and then you are good to go with no chance of messing up that fine old tin.
Don't forget vinegar, it works quite well at rust removal. I have never priced out molasses but vinegar can be on sale for a buck a gallon. From my experience I would think about 2-3 days soaking to remove your level of rust with some wire brushing each day to remove the loose stuff.
All good answers! I had planned to build a 3'L x 4'W x 3'H wooden box, line it with pond liner and soak each panel individually. BTW, can't buy MetalPrep in this area. The SS division of the enviro-nazis are marching through the streets, as we speak! That sir, is a stellar idea! Never thought of that! I could topcoat it with Rustoleum (the $50 paintjob). I'm gonna have to give this one some thought! Also a good idea! I recently soaked a bunch of files that had been sitting outside for years in vinegar. Did an awesome job! Had to wirewheel each file afterwards but it was minimal work. Another good possiblilty!
the home depot used to carry a product called the must for rust. It came in a 12 oz. spray bottle. Some type of phosphroic acid. A little labor intense but does a good job on rust. good luck
I got hip the vinegar thing from a bmx restoration website. Holy crap it works well, even on chrome as long as you dont let it sit to long. Plus you can reuse it over and over.
I wonder how long a cheap pond pump would last in vinegar? Pond water isn't exactly pure so maybe? You could rig one up to run vinegar over the parts for a while in your tank, a diffuser outta some plastic tube to spread it out...
Having done electrolysis, what I would tell you if you wanted to give it a whirl would be to get a cheap swimming pool from craigslist or what ever you can get cheaply and large enough to submerge the body, then get a box of borax from the detergent isle at the store, get a trickle charger for car batteries and some pieces of flat steel that would serve as anode and cathode. Its reeeeeel easy.
If it`s not going to be a show car,POR 15 is a good option,stop the rust,worry about paint untill it and you are ready.I would like to paint my avatar yellow,but it`s been done to death so black primer it is. Just my 2cents worth.
I used Dupont metal prep on many things with great results. I soaked a locked up air power planishing hammer overnight and rinsed it off and plug it into air and worked fine. You can put rags on parts keep them saturated and will remove, scrubbing helps but it will remove the rust just will take longer. Soda Blasting only removes paint. It will not even remove heat blueing from a spot weld. POR-15 used it once and will never use again. As rusty as it is if you sand blasted the flat body panels it will warp it all up. You could sandblast door frames and doorjams and will be ok. If you do go with metalprep you must grind or wire brush or lightly blast the bare metal before you can use any bodyfiller. Bodyfiller will not stick to metal that has been treated with metalprep unless it is removed off the top surface first. It says that on the directions. It would probably be easiest to put eproxyprimer down first before your filler work.
I have had good luck on removing rust and paint on my F-1 body panels by using electrolysis. I make a box using plywood and 2 x 4's, line it with plastic, place rebars around the outer perimeter connected with copper wiring, place the part in a solution of water and sodium carbonate (PH increaser for swimming pools), Hook the positive cable of a battery charger to the rebars and the negative to the part, turn it on and let it soak. I'd let it work maybe 3-4 hours. Take it out and easily remove the rust down to bare metal with a small grinder and wire brush. If you feel that it needs more time, soak it for another couple hours. Works for me.
Evintho, I recently ran across the no metal prep as well. I couldn't believe the stores were stopped from selling it. Now when I need to treat galvanized metal I have to make my own metal prep from acid, which strangely enough is still available in hardware stores...go figure.
this is a cheap way to go , a kids pool should be cheap enough and you cant leave the parts in too long and damage them , just remember it only works by line of sight , so turn the parts and move the rebars to suit
How about good old fashioned sanding. A rotary sander will remove most rust, with some sandblasting for the pits. However I have used electrolysis and it works well. http://members.shaw.ca/pekpress/BatteriesAndRust.html Get some cheap chipboard and 2x4s and build a container lined with plastic. Turn on the juice and walk away. I don't believe in any of the brush on stuff. It's like putting make-up on cancer. People talk like por-15 was a gift from God. I tried it and household spray removed it. Rust will always dig its' way out of any coating. And the price for a whole car would pay for sandblasting.
LOL somethin's not right, brother. You think all them oil rigs have Windex-soluble paint on them? POR properly applied and cured is insoluble. The chemicals in it bind to moisture, and that is why it should be applied over rust. Not shiny steel, and never over paint. POR over paint is just spending way too much money for paint.
Those against POR 15 probably have "Instruction Reading Syndrome". It is a disease that skips through words of importance.
for the money you will spend on all the other stuff listed above. and por is not cheap. just have it blasted with 120 grit aluminum oxide .and be done with it and it will be done right .its a small body what could it cost 100 150 bucks ?by the way soda does not remove rust .
Long reply.. sorry.. kinda. I've been doing a LOT of that stuff in the past couple of years with metal that looks like that and worse. I'm no expert and I didn't sleep at a Super 8 or what ever hotel last night.. but I'll share what I know. I've used electrolysis, molasses, oxalic acid, Evapo-Rust (like Safest Rust Remover) and phosphoric acid along with rust converters to kill the rust. I have a lovely pressurized blaster but the metal we get around here makes yours look really solid and couldn't handle blasting. Don't even begin to tell me how bad your rust is. We are kings of it here compared to the states. De-grease (critical) and wire-wheel off as much as you can with any of these methods. This will cut down on a lot of time. Electrolysis is simple and cheap but mainly line-of-sight. It doesn't do well around corners or in between panels and in cracks. But I do a lot of it because it works well for what it does. I have a dash panel from a 1915 T dipping as I type this. Keep the amps down. Fast isn't better. Too fast and you introduce an effect that is like work-hardening the metal (hydrogen embrittlement). Yes.. you can do it in a few hours but I run around 6 amps and let it go for 24 hours (depending on the severity of the rust). Take the part out mid-way and clean it a bit.. it will help considerably. Don't use stainless steel for your sacrificial steel. Deadly. The process does create hydrogen so (even thought the quantities are small) beware of spark and open flame. Use Arm and Hammer Washing Powder for the electrolyte.. somewhere around a spoonful per gallon but your battery charger will tell you if you need more or less. Do some reading. LOTS of good info on the here and the net about electrolysis. A tip... if you can't get Washing Powder (like me in my area) you can use baking soda IF you simply cook it first. Spread baking soda on a pan, pop it in the oven for 1 hour at 300F (this is about the only time I cook anything). It turns into the same product as washing powder (bicarbonate turns to carbonate). Some folks use other things for the electrolyte but that stuff works best and no nasty chemicals are used or created. Take the part out of the solution and scrub and wash off as much of the black stuff that forms as is reasonable. Don't panic though... the black is not rust. It's chemically different. You can prep right over it. I use a rust converter to be sure I got it all. Plastic-Kote has a good product from what I see. The black stuff is wicked dirty. Wear old clothes and don't get it anywhere you don't want it. You have been warned. Oh ya.. NEGATIVE wire to the part you want de-rusted. Otherwise.. bye-bye part. Molasses takes about 2 weeks (It is as slow as molasses, after all). People have been dipping whole car bodies for a long time. 1 part molasses to up to 9 parts water. I've used black strap and even low-cal table stuff. All work well. Major stink. Cover well. Animals love it. Vinegar needs to be neutralized after or it keeps working. It eats good metal and rusty metal so you have to stop it from working and clean well or months down the road it ain't pretty. I don't like it. Oxalic acid (it's in Barkeeper's Friend and some deck washes (Zeps) only eats rust. So.. you can leave the part in metal for as long as you want without hurting the good metal. Evapo-Rust is like molasses and oxalic acid.. they are chelating agents (only attack the iron oxide, forming a heterocyclic ring around the rust, leaving the good metal alone). Lots of big word that I had to look up. That stuff is the cats meow (or any other part you might compare it to). I have dipped hinges in all other methods and they came clean but were still stuck. After 20 - 60 minutes in that stuff they are free-working hinges. Love the stuff but it's not cheap. I like it for sensitive parts or places that need seepage to get in all the nooks and crannies. It's all I'd use if I could afford it. Safe (dump it down the drain after if you want) and simple stuff. Oh.. for a tank I have built the wooden ones but I am now using cement building blocks. They can be shaped in almost and form you need. I wrap wire around them to stop them from being knocked about by the weight of the water. Stakes around the perimeter would work too but I happen to have a whack of wire that was given to me. I line the "tank" with heavy plastic or if it's of the right size I have used old air mattresses. They are tough and even if they leak air they rarely leak water since there is little pressure. I'm sure there is more but... Sorry for the run-on but like I say.. I've been trying this a lot for a while. I'd love to try POR but can't get it around here. Electrolysis at work:
I have used the electrolytic method many times and it works well, but is limited to the rusted areas that are directly exposed to the sacrificial steel. I also like Oxalic Acid crystals to remove rust, especially for areas hard to reach. Hardware stores carry it in pure form as 'Wood Bleach' in 12oz containers. Mix 3-4oz per gallon of water. 'Barkeeper's friend' is mostly fine abrasives with only a small amount of those crystals. Oxalic acid is still considered a mild acid, but more effective against rust, than vinegar, molasses or citric acid. It's also mild enough to be safe with softer metals, like brass, copper, etc. You can accelerate the rust removal process with heat and agitation. Keep the acid hot and stir the rusted parts around in the acid or keep flowing the acid around the parts. Works excellent for descaling and rust-removal of coolant passages and radiators and was available over the counter until a few years ago, for just that purpose, offered by Prestone. For smaller parts and when I need instant results, I use Muriatic Acid (Concrete or Pool cleaner), also available in hardware stores. Its 30% diluted HCL, which is aggressive and will eat metal if exposed too long. Be very careful when using HCL ! Even with this diluted concentration, take all safety precautions for working with harmful chemicals and ONLY work outside, as just the fumes alone will corrode bare metal in its vicinity.
Yep. POR has been around for quite a few years and it's the quickest/easiest way that I know of. It ain't magic, just works good. My opinion from the picture is, "not quite rot' is an optimistic point of view. In places, that sheetmetal has lost more than half of it's original thickness. After blasting there will be holes in lots of places. Don't blast it, wire bursh the loose off, POR it and drive it, it'll last forever . http://www.por15.com/
I saw a few post on picklex 20 for rust removal. I looked for positive feed back on the product but didn't get any replies on the post I did. Would like more info on the stuff sounds good to me! Maybe some one will chine in Joe
I'm using molasas now. Plastic 150 gal. tank with 20 gal. of feed store molasas. Now soaking several panels very much like yours. They have been in the solution for three days and the panels are mostly clean metal but with some rust remaining in the pits. I'm going to leave in the mix for several more days befor I remove and wash off. Other threads have warned that parts cleaned in this manner start rusting very fast. I want to leave parts in bare metal while I repair rust-out areas do body work. I don't want to primer until I'm ready. Does anyone know of a chemical treatment or wash that will hold off the rust and not create problems when it's time to paint. By the way the plastic water trough?? cost $135 and the Molasas was $11 for a 4 gal. pail. I'm in the city and I'm sure it's cheaper in a rural area. It doesn't smell as bad as they say.
Use Gibbs Product. Awesome stuff that can be painted over later with no problems. Check it out here. http://www.gibbsbrandlubricant.com/ I swear by it.
Lots of good replies here! I think I'm gonna try both! I'll dip one door in molasses and try the electrolysis method on the other door. Whichever works the best will be the way I go for the rest of the panels. Afterwards, I'll give any remaining rust spots a light blasting then a coat of primer. I can always grind it off before I do any panel patching.
What Gizmo Jo said about electrolysis. Everything you need to know, but here are a few tips: 1. Jump in the hot tub! Craigslist always has free hot tubs (we're in California), and you can submerge most parts but big pieces can be done half at a time. Or borrow an old pickup bed with tailgate and line it with plastic. 2. For the sacrificial steel I use another freebie: old bed frames. Or pay a couple bucks at the thrift store or yard sale. I weld them together in a box shape to go inside the perimeter of my soaking container, with a post at each corner sticking up out of the solution at least 6 inches. That way the anode and cathode are looking directly at each other all the way around. Make the bottom of this frame smooth so it doesn't penetrate the container liner. 3. Wire up the posts with continuous solid copper (I use old romex house wire) and only strip the insulation off where the wire is wrapped around each post. Bring the wire full circle back to the corner where you hook up the positive charger cable. 4. For your negative bus, get an old copper water pipe or tube long enough to go all the way across your soaking container from rim to rim. Completely strip lengths of copper wire, wrap securely around the rusty parts, lower the parts into the solution and then wrap the ends of the wire around the copper pipe. Clip the charger's negative cable to the pipe. 5. I left out one key point: insulate the positive and negative items from touching. I use free lattice-type plastic trays scavenged from the produce store or the plant nursery. In other words, you can dumpster-dive a complete setup for next to nothing. A tablespoon of soda to a gallon of water more or less, the solution is not critical. You may have to hook a car battery in the system so the charger will work properly. Run the charger for a week or until the bubbles completely stop. When you pull the parts, have a plastic tarp on the floor because like Joe said, the thin black coating is nasty. Rags and brushes. When the outsides are done to your liking, even the bottoms of those deep pits will be rusticated. Leave the black gunk in them. Next do the insides of the doors and other nooks and crannies: get some old rubber hose and 3/8ths rebar (or similar steel.) Cover the ends of a bar by slipping on short lengths of hose, then connect up a length of insulated copper wire and drop the bar inside a cavity you want to de-rust. The trick is to use rubber hose to keep the anode and cathode from touching and by using insulated copper wire with only the ends stripped. You may need several short rebars in one cavity to get full coverage. Just bring the copper wires up out of the solution and wrap around the positive terminal. The roadster part gets connected to negative as usual. I haven't actually used this last tip yet, so if copper wire doesn't work due to sacrificing itself when immersed, you can always use coat hanger wire instead and insulate it where needed. If you have the time, probably the cheapest and maybe the best method. None of the "good" metal is lost this way and no panel distortion. OOPS: Gives off hydrogen and oxygen gasses - EXPLOSIVE - no sparks or flames!
Excuse me,but did you say it had been sitting in a tree? am I the only one curious or did I miss something? please explain
The Jalopy Journal
