Information on my Model T and Opinions on Restoring a Historically Documented Hot Rod

So I have been looking and put may feelers out on a car I purchased 7ish years ago on the HAMB trying to figure out the history. Well a few months ago Jeff (Titus) on the HAMB found the details I have been looking for. The car was a cover car and no doubt I want to restore it back to that exact look from the magazine down to as many details as I can. I feel like this is a once in a lifetime opportunity for me and would like to hear from people and their experience and opinions on this type of projects.

The detail are that Ray Lisea the original builder died in 1997 and I have had limited luck in finding any family or people that either know the car or the man. Other than this one magazine and the pieces I got with the car I don't have much else to go on.

Obviously there are a number of unknowns that a person has to guess on with this type of build and I wonder how liberal should I be. Here are the big unknowns:

FRAME: I have studied the pictures of the frame and think that it is a late 20's Essex frame as it almost looks like splash aprons on the side but since the tie rods attache directly to it I know it is not a model a frame with aprons. Any body else have any guesses?

Engine: 48 Merc that has been hopped up, so can I just do as I please here as long as it is era appropriate speed equipment?

Trans: Flathead Toploader?

Rear Axle: The one that came with the car when I got it was an Olds that had the original bones welded directly to the axle housing, but the spring perches are all wrong and, it looks too wide, so I am thinking it was either a banjo or quickchange (probably a banjo). Thoughts?

The other big question is if you have a questionable parts for instance I have the original front axle. It looks to be a 36 Ford axle that was chromed. The chrome is shot and someone burned a big torch hole in the webbing. It is repairable, should I repair it or just get another nicer 36 axle to chrome. I guess what I am asking is how important is it that I try to use all the original parts I have when better replacements may be available. Thanks and here are some pictures.

 

Wow, nice project. I'd go with a better front axle and keep the original just to say you've got it. That front end is really cool. Do you have any of the original front sheet metal?

 

I don't unfortunately, I do know the grill is a 1939 Chrysler not Desoto as stated in the article. The hood sides should be tough to make...

 

I say if you have an actual part that was on the car when it was in the magazine use it. looks like too many of the original parts are missing already.

as the original parts disappear it becomes more of a re-creation than a restoration.

lots of names in that article, you couldn't find any of those guys?

 

Definately a worthy car to put back as it was. It's not a cookie cutter hot rod of that era which makes getting the fabrication details of that build harder. Very similar to trying to restore a old homemade race car. Most everthing on it appears to have been modified somewhat. By the date of the cover the latest year the build was started would have been 1954. That car is unique , some one on the hamb from that era in CA. must have some more info on it . A great find and my hat is off to you for having the patience to have held off till you came up with some info on it. Hope this thread will dust off some more cobwebs around it's past.

 

Personally, I'd restore anything that I had from the original build. It may be easier to replace bent and damaged parts but if at all possible I'd try to use the originals.

The steering box with the upward pointing pitman arm may take some research. There has been some discussion here on the HAMB about this issue.

With that said I bet that if the original builder had a wreck it would be perfectly acceptable to get different parts to fix it. I'd tend to be annul about the correct parts. It's a compromise that only you can determine where to draw the line.

Better pictures may show that it had a belly pan under the frame.

That's a cool looking roadster. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity. IMHO

 

Good luck on the build. Probably an unpopular opinion here, but do you want to plant flowers in it or drive it? If it were mine, and I got it in the state of (in)completion you did, I'd make sure it was built with good parts so that it would go straight down the road, that it would turn, that it would go, and that it would stop. For instance, the old chromed axle with the torch hole in it would be a nice wall hanging and I'd buy a new Super Bell axle. etc. Good luck with it; it's a very neat piece.

 

Not to sound negative but a restoration is just that a restoration. You will spend a lot of time researching to get it right.

Any little bit you sway from the real deal and then it becomes a rectification.

I don't have the patience for a restoration so I rectify stuff and go with it. If you have the patience to restore one my hat is off to you.


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Thanks for all the feedback and opinions.

49RF: I am working on it but so far no luck, do you know any of them?

Tommy: I think I will likely try to use all the original I can, I was just curious what others thought.

Racewriter: Thanks for the opinion, but I will definitely not be taking that approach, I have other cars that I have done just as you suggested, this car is special to me.

P'n'B you are 100% correct and I have no doubt there will be some rectifying, but I want to get as much info to try and do right by the car.

 

If it was mine I'd do it as exact to the mag article as possible. Plenty of other cars to add your own touch to. I enjoy the challenge of making hot rods look like they really came from (insert your favorite build era here). You've got a great start.

 

Is the Lancer CC mentioned in the article still around? They may have additional information (club history, membership, etc.) that may give some more details.

Oh, and, I think it's a great looking car - I especially like the grille/pan and the radius rods/bones.

Steve

 

I like your attitude.

I have an old Gas Roadster/Altered (changed to Altered with the rule change) that I have been collecting parts for for a few years. I know the history on it but it is going to be rectified, the original builder wouldn't mind and infact would expect that of me.

Looks like you have a long road ahead of you. I would like to watch as time goes on.

 

Alchemy-That is exactly what I hope to do, but there are still many loose ends such as what chassis was used.

Steve-I did check that also, there is a Lancers club in California that I found but it is unrelated, unfortunately most of my searches come up empty on this research project, then I get a teaser and push ahead a bit more.

 

note the pitman arm is pointed up.... good chance it was a cross steer box spun 90 deg

 

Wish I had something to help you out with Chris...if I get my new job that I interviewed for I'll gladly see if we can "prototype" those hairpins and nerf bars on the tubing bender, the company wants to expand into other markets and I told them making traditional styled hot rod parts like that would be simple with their equipment ...

 

Not to disrespect it, but the significance pretty much ends at the era it was built. If I were doing something like this I'd clearly replace any common part that was used if the original stuff is rough. No way would I take a chance on an axle that I could score without too much trouble. Your pics and research are a great guide to style and color as well as a listing of components that set it apart some. I noticed right away that the original upholstery was, well, not something I'd ever be happy with. Yes we can do many things much better today and the desire to re-live is genuine, but the line should be drawn at using it's original ideas as a guide and building it in a safe and rational fashion. I'm having a hard time expressing exactly what I mean so I hope some of it makes sense. Just my honest opinion about the resto, my honest opinion of the car is that it's a really bitchin example of a style and vibe that many of us strive to achieve.

 

I love the front end on this car. The use
of a Chrysler grill and nose section is very
cool and definitely unique! I hope you'll be
able to duplicate/recreate that and the hood
and side panels! If you have to recreate the
hood and side panels from scratch, just a
thought, but sheet aluminum might be easier
to work with than steel. About the front axle
- if it's been hacked up and cut with a torch,
I'd probably find another '36 Ford axle (they're
common enough) - rather than try to repair
the original. Even if the torch damage is
cosmetically reparable, I'd be a bit concerned
that the original temper and heat treat of the
axle may have been damaged. Add in the fact
that it'll need to be rechromed anyway, starting
with another '36 axle just seems to make sense.
About restoring/recreating this other details on
this unique car too - remember that all rod were
(and are, always) a 'work in progress' - always
in a state of flux and always being updated,
upgraded and 'improved', usually as finances
and parts availability permitted. So long as you
can keep the basic design and intent of the
original builder intact and use as many period
correct parts and construction methods as
possible , I wouldn't be too worried about
keeping it absolutely 100% authentic to it's
precise 1958 form. That's something to shoot
for, but I'm sure that even to the original
builder, the '1958 version' of the car was
only that - the '1958 version' and how it
was, just for one particular moment in
time. I'm particularly thinking thinking
about the rearend here. Considering the
time period the car was built, it most
probably did use a standard Ford 'banjo'
rearend. That being said, a quick change
if you can find one would absolutely not
be out of place. It's the kind of thing that
most rodders back then didn't use, but
dreamed of and absolutely would have
used if their finances would have permitted.

Mart3406
=======================

 

I was wondering what was going on with this car. I can tell you that I am going through the same thing with mine. It was built during the same time and I am trying to stay as true as I can, keeping saftey in mind. You will get a million opinions so I will throw mine in. I plan on driving mine, so with that in mind...

1. My main focus was retaining the stance/look of the car. I got as close as I could with the scrub line in mind. Anything that was questionable on the suspension was replaced with the same year, better condition. If you can repair the axle safely, I would. Same with the original bones. I would also keep the Olds rear end. I believe mine ran an Olds rear end at one time.

2. New tires, same size and close to what the originals looked like. I have the original tires and they will stay with the car.

3. Transmission, I updated to a newer '60's 4 speed as I want to drive mine. I could have really cheated and gone with a 5 speed but the 4 speed was donated by a good friend.

4. Pour over any magazines that you can find during his build time. The Little Page Community here on the HAMB has some good articles. More than once I found an answer there.

5. I will also spend a lot of time trying to preserve/protect the body when I get to that point.

It is far more difficult and time consuming to bring it back to what it was. Very few people will realize the anguish you will go through. With that said, you have also been handed the chance of a lifetime that most people only dream about!

 

"but the spring perches are all wrong and, it looks too wide, "............................

I'm having difficulty understanding what your intent is. If you want it to represent it's original form; a Historically Documented Hot Rod the least you can do is use all of the original parts you posess. Not using them........................ would be.............wrong.

Otherwise, that's a dandy project. If it were mine and I simply wished to build a bitchin' ride with as much of the original 'look' as possible, I would proport it to be "influenced by", etc.,etc,, then call it 'mine'.

 

Who knows for sure if the Olds rear IS the original '58 era rear or if some schmuck took the original bones off of a banjo rear that WAS the '58 era rear and welded them onto a "better" rearend ie: the Olds rearend...my guess is it was originally a banjo they did the "circle track nerf bar look" to the bones and someone added the Olds rear later in an attempt to "update" the car...

 

This mindset is exactly what can lead to more expense and anguish than can be imagined. Restoration is not for the meek or undisciplined. Certainly it's not for the faint of wallet either. Other than a select handfull of folks here and the original builders, who's heard of this car? How much genuine "fame" does it have that would require the expense in dollars and time to restore it? You could lay an OHV Caddy or Olds in it if you wanted. The overall profile and styling are what's important. And the axle? I think repairing a torched axle is a waste of time and energy.
Henry was proud of his metallurgy and welding on it after it's already been torched, nuff said. I mean really, it's not like a one off custom axle from "Mr Most Famous Hot Rod Builder Ever".

I'm confident you'll get your stride and will present a well restored representation of this car regardless of some detail choices. Again, not to insult or dis the thing but it ain't the Hirohata Merc or one of the Surfer's dragsters. You have a period hot rod that can be a guide to the vision we all seek at times. That I believe shows more respect for the car than the personal suffering and expense of an "OG nut and bolt" approach.

 

Anguish? Anguish was the emotion I experienced when my mother died. Oh how you do ramble on to hear yourself talk. Meek and disciplined? I own a national award for a restoration I did; so I don't need your lecture on your version of what a restoration is. I'll take meek over your arrogance any day.

What you're saying is that the mechanicals of a car can simply be discarded and something else can be put in. Sure, go ahead and put another motor in it while you're at it. Shit, why not change everything, assemble aftermarked parts that resemble period correct " styling and profile; that's what's important. " ....... that's bullshit.

There's a big difference between a " Historically Documented Hot Rod " and your vision of a something that merely resembles a cookie cutter with " overall profile and styling. " It's your narrow mindset that leads a lot of people to destroy a historical hot rod because certain things are ugly.

Your attitude...."other than a select handfull of folks here and the original builders, who's heard of this car? How much genuine "fame" does it have" . .............yatta, yatta............That stinks.

 

Thanks for all the feedback. As for genuine fame obviously it is not a super high profile car or magazine for that matter, but it was on the cover of a 50's hotrod magazine and so if you think about it from that stand point it is in a bit of an exclusive club.

My plan is to try and get as much information as I feel I can and then make assumption based on the era and from the pictures. The car will be driven but I will sacrifice if necessary to achieve the best representation of the car to look like the 1959 version and to ensure it is era correct. The odds are it will be really close but not exactly as it was in 1959.

Lastly I find it odd that terms such as "influenced by or in the over all style of" are being used. Maybe it was lost somewhere along the way in this thread, but I am the only one that owns the car that was on the cover of Jan 1959 Rod Builder & Customizer. Even if some one has the chassis, engine and front sheetmetal to me having the original one off customized body means I own the car, so make no doubt this is not a car styled to look like that car it is that car...there is no changing that.

 

I got the new job Chris, so my offer stands to help recreate the nerf bars and the bars attached to the split bones as long as my employer is willing to let me use their equipment...as far as I know I have full access to a laser, tubing bender, tig welder, CNC and manual mills and lathes and a few other goodies...let me know what I can do to help when you get that far...and as far as I'm concerned this car DESERVES to be as close to an EXACT restoration to it's show form as possible with the information you have access to...

 

Really neat car, love the split bones with the extra tubing to make them look like hairpins. Never seen that on a period car before. Just my opinion, and I am not paying the bills, but this car deserves to be restored as close as you can get it.

 

When you hit over 120 nat'l awards and perfect scores let me know. I didn't know it was about you. The fuckin guy asked for opinions. And if you've never had to sweat the details or search for weeks or even years for the right stuff then I guess you don't understand what I meant by anguish. Some cars are worth that effort, some are not. Some get abandoned for those reasons. Some get their owners so upside down from a finacial aspect that they'll hate the fuckin thing for it. Again, I missed where this was about you. I thought the guy was looking for ideas from every angle of his new project. When you get one I'll tell you how to restore the OEM trim screws cuz using new ones would be wrong. I'd bet you ate a lotta paint chips as a kid...

 

Was AWESOME you came along to French Lake today, glad you were able to score that grille, we should have looked for a column and steering wheel too! This is going to be way rad and super one-of-a-kind when it all comes together! Screw the haters and do it the way it was, it's just as easy to put it back then to do it some other way!

 

Nice project! I can relate to what you are up against, my Lyndwood rail restoration is in it's 20th year. If you want to restore it to the look it had in that magazine feature I'm all for it, even if you mak have some odd feature that you might want to upgrade. I never liked the rollover door upholstery of that era, but it is in the photos, so you better plan on replacing it. Not everyone will have the chance to restore a cover car, please post the progress protos of the restoration. Oh, what is the rear section, 28-29 Model A or something else?

 

YOU askin' me?.......... "I missed where this was about you."

Post #22; Where YOU "Quote" me, then proceed to lecture me in a paragraph a couple hundred words long what's wrong with "that mindset",(implying my 'mindset' was off kilter) with that rant about avoiding anguish, saying the car not being that important, it's okay to change things because only the overall look, "styling and profile" is what counts, etc., etc, ,,,,,,,,, then get your panties in a bunch when I reply to it?

Take a Valium.

 

Guys, seriously, knock off the pissing match...agree to disagree and let's keep this thread on topic...please?...