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Projects Track Roadster 16 yrs in the making

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by trakrodstr, Apr 25, 2009.

  1. 41 Dave
    Joined: May 23, 2005
    Posts: 2,594

    41 Dave
    Member

    Charlie, Sorry that Maserodi won't be ready for the HAMB Drags. It is best to sort out all your tuning issues first. There will be plenty of time later to enjoy the drive. Wish you quick progress with your trouble shooting.
     
  2. LB+1
    Joined: Sep 28, 2006
    Posts: 581

    LB+1
    Member
    from 71291

    Tom T Hall - I think said it all in a song.
    Older Whiskey, Younger Women, Faster Horse's And More Money!

    Hang in there - Charlie
     

  3. Thanks guys. I just ordered a Tach adapter from Autometer, the guy at Simple Digital Systems suggested this since we have had repeated issues with the tach to coil electronics. We'll see what happens.

    LB+1, I'll take the money, too old for young woman, I don't want any horse manure to clean and as for whiskey I'm already moving too slow.

    If something good happens I'll let you know.
     
  4. 41 Dave
    Joined: May 23, 2005
    Posts: 2,594

    41 Dave
    Member

    Charlie, Keep up the updates. Looking forward to when the update is that TR is running like a Swiss Chronometer . . . . . . . I will settle for a smooth idle and quick throttle response. Zoom . . . . . Zoom . . . . Ain't no Mazda . . .
     
  5. HealeyRick
    Joined: May 5, 2009
    Posts: 573

    HealeyRick
    Member
    from Mass.

    These teething troubles must be driving you crazy, Charlie. What's the expression, "The last 10% of the build takes 90% of the time."? Hang in there, it will all be worth it in the end.
     
  6. Thanks Rick and Dave,

    I'm doing dumb stuff like "shortening" the seat/shoulder belts and dyeing them a light brown/green color (I hope). This dyeing is an inexact science to say the least. The belts are supplied super long for four door sedans, I guess. The webbing is so long it won't roll up completely inside the spool mechanism.

    Also the closest color we could find was a really light tan or eggshell white. Since I have LOTS of $#!@&^ time to work on my dysfunctional TR I pulled the belts completely off the spools and cut them to length. I took the belts and hardware (floor anchor) to a luggage repair shop and had them re-stitch the nylon webbing properly. I saved the leftover nylon webbing material (three feet cut off each side).

    I bought some grocery store clothes dye one pack of "cocoa brown" and one pack of "kelly green" RIT ™ brand dye. I mixed the two colors 2 parts brown to 1 part green according to the package instructions. Next I filtered the warm dye solution through an old wash cloth to remove the fine particles (this is important if you don't want dark spots); then I diluted the dye solution into approximately 4 gallons of warm water and threw the scrap webbing material that had been trimmed off. The color came OK kind of a muted light brown.

    I almost forgot I also needed to dye the other, buckle section, of the seat/shoulder belt system. I didn't bother to remove the buckle...too much trouble. If I had forgotten it would have been a big problem because trying to match two different batches the same color. would be damn near impossible. I'll let the belts soak in the dye solutions most of the day stirring often so the coloring will be even.

    Not exactly what I want to be doing...but it keeps me occupied and needed to be done.

    Later,

    trakrodstr
    aka charlie
     
  7. 41 Dave
    Joined: May 23, 2005
    Posts: 2,594

    41 Dave
    Member

    Charlie, Hope your die job turns out well. It's all the details that help to make the car. Any up date on your top or tonneau cover for TR ? I am planning a simple tonneau cover for my '29 "A" Modified. I also will have a removeable metal top - hope to find someone to make mods to the metal top so we can make a composite top (lighter and stronger than the metal top). Wish you all the best on your continued trouble shooting.
     
  8. LB+1
    Joined: Sep 28, 2006
    Posts: 581

    LB+1
    Member
    from 71291

    HEAR I GO THINKING AGAIN - I was wondering - if some delooted bleach water
    would have took some of the Color and stiffness out? Letting the dye do its
    color job deeper?
     

  9. I don't know LB+1, but I'll try your suggestion on the scrap material I tested the dye on...I'll let you know.

    How's life on the Bayou?

    I hope to work with Brett this weekend and give the EFI another go. Brett spoke with the folks at Simple Digital Systems and they suggested we try a tach adapter between the coil and the ECU. I ordered a tach adapter from Autometer and it arrived yesterday. It is designed to take the noisy impulse from the coil and convert it to a clean square wave. As the tach/RPM sensing has been problematic this is likely a good suggestion. Others have strongly recommended a MSD box...but it is getting hard to find places to mount bright red boxes and hide all the electronics.

    We'll see.

    trakrodstr
    aka charlie
     
  10. Charlie,
    Sorry you were not able to make it to the drags but I understand that you have to sort out problems before you hit the road. Good luck and hang in there. It will happen.
    Later,
    Dick
     
  11. Dick,

    Thanks Man. It was pretty embarrassing to weenie out, but not as bad as a major failure while trying to attend the HAMB Drags would have been. I guess I'm "glad" that we have such weird symptoms regarding the tach/RPM signal...it makes me think this symptom may be a major clue that will lead to a fix. At least Brett thinks so; and it's good to have someone involved who isn't stress out about all the delays.

    I appreciate your positive thoughts.

    charlie
     
  12. Charlie, slap some carbs on that thing and come pick me up! :)

    Keep the faith! You'll get it ironed out.

    -mike-
     
    brEad likes this.
  13. 41 Dave
    Joined: May 23, 2005
    Posts: 2,594

    41 Dave
    Member

    Charlie, I know you and the other gentleman are troubleshooting TR as we speak. Have you thought about bouncing questions off of Vergil ? I know his set up is not as intricate as yours but . . . . . Just a thought. Keep on a trying.
     
  14. Mike,

    Believe me I've had that thought. I have two complete carb setups for the Dodge Hemi. A virgin 3x2 Rochester from Hot Rod Carbs on an old Offy intake and a stocker 4bbl manifold with an Edelbrock; BUT neither will fit under the hood, and I am not going to butcher that graceful hood with a scoop. You will agree when you see the car for real.

    I'll jump at the chance to come and pick you up...for real.

    Dave,

    I spoken with Virgil and he has been great, but I guess each of these deals has its own gremlins. Mainly he says just keep chipping away and talking with anyone who will listen.

    We're due for some good luck, and the tach adapter is a logical step. Thanks for your continued support.

    charlie
     
  15. 41 Dave
    Joined: May 23, 2005
    Posts: 2,594

    41 Dave
    Member

    Charlie, When you get TR runnin' like a watch you need to make a video of it running. Then a good video of you and TR cruising around your neighborhood.
    Say to your friend from SoCal. Were you thinking of visiting the Walt James Classic this year ? Always great fun !
     
  16. Sorry but this is going to be a short post as I'm traveling.

    Yesterday, Sunday 29th, Brett worked for eight (8) hours on the TR. Bottom line, is that the newly installed tach adapter made a huge difference. Using jumper wiring, while sitting on jack stands (no load on the engine) the motor revved to 4500 RPM no problem, it idles nice and starts easily.

    So a clean square wave pulse to the ECU really made a big improvement. There are still some gremlins with the wiring as the tach in the instrument panel no longer works....

    Nevertheless, Brett made big headway.

    I am going on record stating that there is now light at the end of the tunnel.

    I'll give more details toward the end of the week when I return to KC.

    trakrodstr
    aka charlie
     
  17. 41 Dave
    Joined: May 23, 2005
    Posts: 2,594

    41 Dave
    Member

    Charlie, That is some great news. Amazing on how a little change can make some great improvements. I bet that TR was sounding HEALTHY ! Looking forward to the next update.
     
  18. hasty
    Joined: Jul 5, 2009
    Posts: 1,411

    hasty
    Member

    Good news Trakrodstr - congratulations.
    About time you started enjoying that machine
     

  19. Hasty,

    I appreciate your generous words. I feel like a load has been lifted off my back. Now we can get down to the business of tuning the engine.

    I can tell I'm going to need a throttle linkage guru to get the old Hilborn throttle plates completely open. Right now the plates will only open about 3/4. I like the throttle pedal position and layout as it is...so my guess is that there will need to be an intermediate bellcrank between the present throttle linkage and the Hilborn throttle shaft(s) to provide a bit more throw. If you or any reader knows a good linkage fabricator in the greater KC area let me know.

    Cheers
    charlie
     
  20. I hope you're not keeping us posted because you are too busy driving...:)
     
  21. VOETOM
    Joined: Aug 6, 2006
    Posts: 348

    VOETOM
    Member
    from MO

    Charlie,
    I too am in the KC area. Did Don at Burlington's in Raytown build the engine?
    We need you to bring your exceptionally nice ride back to Raytown this weekend for an open house/car show. Any time to do so?
    Steve's Auto 5500 Raytown Road, food and drinks from 10 till 2, right down the road from Burlington's.
    Tom
     

    Attached Files:

  22. Cactus1 and all the Hambers who continue to follow this saga:

    OK, mia culpa, I should be a better thread writer. Some days I was too bummed to write, other days I wanted to make sure of the "progress" before I wrote up the "progress".

    It has been a roller coaster ride, with lots of strange blind alleys. At this time the engine is running reasonably well up to 3000rpm. Brett, the EFI expert, has NOT attempted to tune the engine beyond that point. The engine starts well when warm and idles nicely at about 600-800rpm.

    There is a tach adapter signaling the CPU from the positive side of the coil. The instrument panel tach works properly as does the RPM reading in the CPU display. Brett finally figured out that the fuel pump was OFF when the ignition key was in the CRANK position, but functioned normally when the key was in the "RUN" or the "ACCESSORY" position…that one took a while. The new wires are in position and hidden properly (not strung over the windshield). We had to drill one new hole in the firewall (boo hoo), but the new hole is unobtrusive.

    There is a cold start problem. However, with a tiny squirt of gas in the air stacks the engine fires immediately when cold. The current suspicion is that when the engine is in a cold start mode only a few of the EFI nozzles are getting a proper level of electrical signal; and that this condition is related to the ignition key being in the "CRANK" position. It is clear that there is fuel starvation in a cold start mode, despite adjusting the cold start parameters in the CPU.

    Brett is going to run some new jumper wires to try to "cure" the cold start issue. Once the cold start problem is cured, he then plans to hook up a wide-band, instrument grade, O2 sensor. Then we will take the TR on the road and set the FUEL/RPM values while driving. I'll drive and Brett will adjust the rich-lean values. If all goes well we will then take the TR to a chassis dyno that is capable of holding the engine to a specific load (RPM) and fine tune the fuel/RPM values. I make no predictions as to how long this process will take.

    As I expected there have been some "normal" teething problems such as small water leaks, brake shoes grabbing, and a pulley interfering with the tie rod upon hard breaking. I have corrected all the above problems and the car is quite drivable as long as one remains below 3000rpm….not the most exciting set of circumstances. There is an issue with the trunk lid latch and the gas filler pipe leaks a bit when filling the tank. The tranny, brakes and clutch work great.

    Basically the steering sucks; this is due to my choice of the Schroeder sprint car box. It looks great but it's a poor street steering system. This is the one major mistake I made ( yeah even bigger than converting the Hilborn FI). If I had it to do over again I would give up the sprint car look for a steering gear box with more "on center" feel, lower steering effort and less lost motion. The gear box has NO on-center feel at all, so you tend to saw at the wheel all the time even on perfectly flat concrete roads at moderate speeds. I would strongly urge any rodder who plans to use a sprint car-type box in their hot rod to drive one first. The looks is great, but in my estimation its poor street drivability is not worth the appearance gain. I imagine there will be some HAMBers who disagree — but again I urge others to drive a car with this type of steering before making up their mind. I sure wish I had. I hasten to point out that Schroeder does not advertise that their steering gear box is optimized for street use, so the mistake was mine, not theirs.

    I'll try to do a better job of communicating.

    trakrodstr
    aka charlie

    Hey VOETOM thanks for the message.

    I did have an identical Dodge D500 Hemi built at Don Bulington's shop in Raytown....he did a super job!

    The engine Don rebuilt is back in my 1956 Dodge passenger car.

    I have failed so many times to get the TR to a car show I am embarrassed, but with a bit of luck I may be able to bring the TR to your open house in Raytown. I promise to try...how's that?

    Please send me a PM if you will.
     
  23. 41 Dave
    Joined: May 23, 2005
    Posts: 2,594

    41 Dave
    Member

    Charlie, Good to see you post an update on TR. Keep us informed as these updates happen.
     
  24. sodbuster
    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 5,065

    sodbuster
    Member
    from Kansas

  25. Chris,

    BB's, hummmm....sounds like a plan. As I said to VOETOM, I'm real shy about promising to attend a car show, such promises seem to insure failure to appear.

    Which neighborhood do you live in? It must be near the state line corridor.

    If I attend the BB's show and the TR explodes in flame, will you give me a lift home?

    trakrodstr
    aka charlie
     
  26. Charlie,

    I haven't gone back through to see if there are any pictures of the EFI linkage, but your full-throttle solution is likely as simple as replacing the arm where the linkage attaches to the shaft with one that has a shorter throw. This will allow more shaft rotation for the same amount of pedal movement.

    DON'T give up on the EFI. We go through the same exact type of problem here at the school ALL the time. You keep finding and fixing little issues, and all of a sudden IT'S RIGHT... Once it's tuned, you will be MUCH happier with it than a set of carbs.
     
  27. LB+1
    Joined: Sep 28, 2006
    Posts: 581

    LB+1
    Member
    from 71291

    How is the steering under braking?
    are you having to saw the wheel in a long curve?
    I figured it would be real quick responding
    but no center feel, damn thats "Spookey"
     
  28. VOETOM
    Joined: Aug 6, 2006
    Posts: 348

    VOETOM
    Member
    from MO

    For any other Raytown/KC area HAMBers, feel free to swing by 5500 Raytown Road from 9 till 2 Saturday the 2nd. Lots of cars, lots of food, maybe the TrackRoadster and a relaxed atmosphere.
    Tom
     
  29. Morrisman
    Joined: Dec 9, 2003
    Posts: 1,602

    Morrisman
    Member
    from England

    Why do Americans have this idea that copper brake pipe is like clay, and will crack or split if used as brake line??? :confused:

    Ii is perfectly legal and acceptable in the UK. And I doubt the powers that be would allow it if they had any doubts about its integrity, bearing in mind the other numerous anti-car draconian laws they are passing whenever they get the chance.
     
  30. stuart in mn
    Joined: Nov 22, 2007
    Posts: 2,655

    stuart in mn
    Member

    What you call copper brake lines in the UK is actually a copper-nickel alloy (Cunifer is one brand name.) I don't believe it's commonly available in the US. When people in the US talk about copper pipe they're thinking about the stuff used for household plumbing. It's strong enough to handle low pressure water but it won't handle the pressures of a hydraulic brake system.
     

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