History Auto racing 1894-1942

Nice photo! I know we had photos of the wreck a few months back, has anyone thought of a way to search past posts in this thread? Just about every post with a photo should be recorded so we can find it when new material turns up. I've searched for stuff I know was posted, and found it, but it sure uses up other HAMB reading time.

 

Chuck, It would be great if you could relate the extent of what exactly Miller (and Offenhauser) did in their fix of the Burman Peugeot. Pictures would be great as well. I have done a bit of research but am always looking for what others have found.-Jim


Jim According to GB, Miller replaced the block, pistons, rods, intake manifold and carb with parts made in CA. I have a hammer with a similar pedigree. He cites sources in the "newspapers".

 

Psalt, I have read a few reports on this engine and have researched it pretty good. All of the research to date that is printed is far from solid in my estimation. I was looking for something new I suppose. As to Griffith Borgeson, I like to read his books (and have copies) and they are loaded with great information but I do not always agree with his conclusions. He has come out with a few "solid" conclusions only to change them when some new nuggets come to light. I guess I was hoping for some new nuggets on this issue because I do not believe the final chapter has been written. Hopefully sometime on this forum we will discover more.-Jim

 

1913 GP Madrid - R.A.C.E.

<TABLE class="sites-layout-name-one-column sites-layout-hbox" cellSpacing=0 xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><TBODY><TR><TD class="sites-layout-tile sites-tile-name-content-1">From Gran Vida - June 1913

For the first time in Spain, a motor race of the importance of the "Guadarrama Circuit" has run, and for sure the organisers are proud of the success and satisfied to see their hard labours were not in vain.
The animation in the circuit, since the 14th of June, was great. There were many motorists from Madrid, and many fans of these sporting races, using the train, motorbike or bicycle they took themselves to win a strategic spot from which they might enjoy the race the most; from Villalba to San Rafael there were enough people; in the Port of Navacerrada there were yet more spectators counted; we encountered a small group in las Siete Revueltas and in la Venta de los Mosquitos; and from this point to La Granja the number of people increased significantly along the roads, enjoying the pleasant shade of the incomparable pine forests of Valsain.
In La Venta de los Mosquitos they witnessed the S.A.R. race between (Miss) Isabel, (Miss) Luisa and (Mr) Carlos.
In several car trucks the soldiers of Engineers were transferred from Madrid, and from Segovia, the site of the regiment, those who had to take care that nobody used the roads from 8:30 in the morning; the National Guard also provided a service for this purpose, enforcing public order and order on the public roads.
They set up three radio telegraph stations, in Villalba, San Rafael and La Granja, to communicate with Madrid and various telegraphs and telephones.
20 relief posts were set up by the Red Cross at several points around the circuit.
The final preparations in this complete organisation, the car pilots left La Granja and San Rafael, who, as they pass, close the roads to the movement of strangers in the way.

10:13am - the first car left... It was the Schneider, manned by Marques de Ugena.
Every 5 minutes after this the cars left ... in this order:

3. Rolls-Royce - manned by Plattford (as a passenger carrying the Count of los Llanos)
5. Humber - manned by Manuel San Roman.
6. Clement Talbot - driven by Hedge - who had an exciting start.
7. Mercedes - piloted by the Duke of Zaragoza.
8. Panhard - with Angel Santibanez
9. Opel - Juan R. Manzano.
10. Delaunay - Garcia Ocana.
11. Panhard - Leoncio Garnier.
12. Schneider - Jose Toda.
13. Panhard - without valves - Julio Lavayen.
14. Lorraine Dietrich - with Marques de Aulencia.
16. Rolls-Royce - Carlos Salamanca.
17. Dion Bouton - by the Marques d'Avaray.
18. Dion Bouton - by the Marques de San Carlos del Pedroso.
19. Dion Bouton - by Arsenio Cebrian.
20. Minerva - by the Count of la Patilla.

The passage of the cars through the place called las Siete Revueltas (the Seven Revolts) - resulted in extreme interest and was picturesque, where the curves are so close together that they hold the race at this point.. to the point that they form a broken line whose strokes are almost parallel. It was on these corners that the Humber, driven by San Roman, lost one of its rear wheels and retired from the race. At this difficult corner we observed in some of the drivers strange manouevres that were not well suited to this difficult turning point.

[omitted more about these curves...]

In the first lap, after the Humber, Jose Toda's Schneider retired after hitting a curbstone, and the Clement-Talbot retired due to not being able to reach the top of the Leon because of engine breakdown.

The second lap started without novelty at a little after 1:30pm. The first to arrive was Plattford, at 1:31pm, passing Cebrian in Segovia. Followed by Ugena at 1:43pm, Zaragoza - who refuelled - at 2:09pm, Santibanez - also refuelled - at 2:18pm, Labayen 2:21pm, Aulencia 2:25pm, D'Avaray 2:41pm, Manzano - refuelling - 2:50pm, and Garcia Ocana - refuelled - 3:02pm.

The Marques de San Carlos del Pedroso retired due to a breakdown. Also in this round, due to suffering important damages, the cars of Garnier and Arsenio Cebrian.

At about 3pm the first drivers finishing the 390km circuit began to arrive, applauded by the numerous and distinguished public. The first to arrive was Plattford in the Rolls-Royce at 3:09pm. He was followed in this order: Marques de Ugena 3:39pm; Marques de Aulencia 4:02pm; Carlos Salamanca 4:03pm; Duke of Zaragoza 4:09pm; Julio Labayen 4:10pm; Angel Santibanez 4:12pm; Marques d'Avaray 4:34pm; Juan R Manzano 4:55pm; Count of Patilla 4:57pm; Garcia Ocana 5:06pm.

The race ended at 5:06pm.

The definitive official classification established by the Jury: (times adjusted for when the cars left)

1. First Prize - Don Alfonso Cup - Grand Prize of R.A.C. (20,000 pesetas) - No.16 - Rolls-Royce - Carlos Salamanca.(3hrs 34m 11s 6/10)
2. Infant Isabela Cup - 2nd Prize of R.A.C. (5,000 pesetas) - No.14 - Lorraine Dietrich - Marques de Aulencia (3hrs 37m 3s 8/10)
3. Infant Don Carlos Cup - No.3 - Rolls-Royce - Mr Plattford (3hrs 39m 55s 6/10)
4. Mestre and Blatge Cup - No.17 - Dion Bouton - Marques d'Avaray (3hrs 49m 43s 4/10) 5. No.13 - Panhard - Julio Labayen (3h 50m 56s 8/10)
6. No.2 - Schneider - Marques de Ugena (4h 7m 50s 8/10)

7. No.20 - Minerva - Count Patilla (4h 8m 22s 4/10)
8. No.8 - Panhard - Santibanez (4h 18m 18s 8/10)
9. No.7 - Mercedes - Duke of Zaragoza (4h 19m 57s 4/10)
10. No.9 - Opel - Manzano (4h 57m 41s 8/10)
11. No.10 - Delaunay - Garcia Ocana (5h 4m 25s 6/10)
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As to Griffith Borgeson, I like to read his books (and have copies) and they are loaded with great information but I do not always agree with his conclusions. He has come out with a few "solid" conclusions only to change them when some new nuggets come to light.

Jim,

I agree, for someone who started off "setting the record straight", he had to eat many of his words. But overall, he brought a lot of light to the subject. It is an interesting story, imagine you had "carb" shop in LA and chance drops off a current Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault F1 car for your amusement.........GB never mentioned Harry had a FIAT GP in his shop, but it would explain a lot and fill in many of the gaps.

Paul

 

Anyone have more pics. of J. Walter Christie`s racers??

 

I have wished, for a long time, that drawings of the Christie engines and drive train survived- has anyone ever seen any? And do any of the cars survive?

Probably no to both--

Herb Kephart

 

Surely, if anyone can answer that it'll be Lee Stohr, but Herb's question brings up another one in my mind: let alone the Christie racers, there were Christie taxis using the same front drive system.
Have any of these, or parts thereof, survived I wonder?

 

Good question......After being in contact with Lee, he has mentioned to me that no racing cars or parts have been known to survive..... I wonder if any Christie military tanks have survived?? Hopefully Lee will let us know....

 

Somewhere out there on the web, I found copies of the patent drawings for the W.C 5 drive train. Other than that,....Nothing.

 

I read in a an English Classic Car mag someone was working on at least one recreation.

 

Who can tell us about these two and their early supercar?

 

Christie:
I don't know of any Christie car parts to have survived. A couple parts from the Taxi are supposed to be around somewhere, but the taxi had a more modern drivetrain layout than his earlier racing cars. Patent drawings exist for the Taxi.
I believe there are some tanks around, one was at Aberdeen.
Some Christie front drive fire engine tractors also exist, but that design is totally different than the racing cars.
Two nice drawings were printed in the Automobile 1909, of the last and fastest Christie racer (Barney Oldfield drove in 1912-1916). Here are some images from that article.

 

Interesting.....A friend in Richland, Michigan is planning one as well. His resume` includes the replica of Oldfields "Golden Submarine" that Buck Boudeman owns..So it`s no "Pipe dream"

 

Christie built at least two street cars, whereabouts unknown -

 

If someone can tell me how the clutch plates stay engaged in the drawing above, I'm curious to know. No springs are visible on the clutch or actuation levers.

Christie used a clutch on each end of the crankshaft. Top gear was direct drive, straight from the crank thru the clutches to the wheels.
The clutches allowed the wheels to be disconnected for low gear and reverse to be engaged.

Also notice the independent front suspension.

 

I'm guessing this is a Geneva Steamer.

 

Twin6 posted this Chalmers racing car photo on his thread post #5799 yesterday.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=483757&page=290





The37kid has identified as the Chalmers Bluebird. With the photo were also these others which if you study them they appear to be Chalmers-Detriot automobiles which were in what appears to be an early hill climb of some sort. The photos came from Rhode Island so this event may have happened in New England somewhere.

 

It almost looks as though "front shaft" slides lateraly and engages/dis-engages the clutch via the "fork ring"... He used the clutches as a differential , Yet had a separate clutch at the centerline.

 

Lee-
Many thanks for the information and drawings of the Christie!

Herb Kephart

 

I found this picture of an early 'go-kart' on a powerpoint presentation that I recieved via email. No information about it was included.

Most of the pictures in the pps were from the period 1920 to 1922, so I assume the go-kart is from this era also.

JG

 

There is a Cruiser in the Tank Museum in Bovington in Dorset here in the UK. Not strictly a Christie as such, but based on a Christie design. The link is attached

 

That is a Smith Motor Wheel, later sold out to Briggs & Stratton. There was an electric that looked a lot like it called the Red Bug.

 

Good guess Bob, according to a brief history of Geneva town Ohio the racer was known as the 'Turtle'. It's hard to tell who's driving, W.C.Buckman and John McDonald are recorded as driving Genevas in 1902 at several tracks but not the same car at once It could be Grosse Pointe.

 

This is probably the same meet, I think this car was identified earlier in this thread

 

http://autodrome.over-blog.com/article-douglas-hawkes-et-les-derby-miller-46486055.html

 

http://svammelsurium.blogg.se/images/2009/kay_petre_47176298.jpg

 

http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimages/264800/DHV12_Brooklands_KayPetre_1935envR.jpg

 

An early Mercedes.....The automobile everyone copied......

 

I think this is Harry Harkness in his...