Getting back to the subject of lead loading, I believe it has its place in panel work but unfortunately has been over used in the past causing it to get a bad name. I try to metal finish the work I do and I use a little lead to smooth areas that cannot be metal finished for example factory joints or the occasional area that would take an inordinate amount of time to finish. For this '34 I had to make by hand every panel visible in the photo except part on the roof. I used a small amount of lead in one or two areas to smooth over areas that could not be accessed from behind etc. In order to lead load you need the area to be very clean and free from rust oxides and oil. You can use tining paste (also known as tinning ****er or solder paint) to tin the area but it can also be done with a little of the lead and some bakers fluid. Tin a larger area than you intend to fill. You should wipe the excess from the tinned area with a clean lint free cloth. Lead is applied using heat, a propane torch is better than a gas welding torch in my opinion for this. The lead should be applied in small lumps then spread over the area using a paddle (usually made from maple or rock wood) make it smooth but slightly high then file to shape. Lead is a toxic substance so you should read up on the dangers and precautions before using it. There is a short sequence showing some of the process on my youtube footage.
Hey, Plastic filler is for collision repair, and for use by guys who never learned to work metal! The difference between ''putty work" & actual metalfinishing is like the difference between live music & a recording. A buddy of mine called and said "I just gotta see this cable program on T.V. bout old car restoration!" Ten minutes into the program they show the "bodyman" trowelling filler onto the fender of an old Packard. "WTF" I said as I turned off the T.V. That ain't metalwork or restoration, It's some poser loitering in the shadow of the metalman's trade! Whenever I hear someone say "we removed all the lead solder from the vehicle, and replaced it with ''modern fillers" because they are better, I really invision that they should be in a dress and heels when saying such. Same tribe as the ones who sware by hy-build primer & "iceing'' to prep a panel for painting..............wouldn't it just be easier to straighten the panel rather than try & bury it in filler & primer only to become someones' problem up the road? " Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who didn't '' -Thomas Jefferson-
I'm don't want to start a plastic filler vs lead debate, but I'm going to comment anyway. There are quite a few wrong ways to use Bondo, so it's proper use isn't mindless. Most people don't realize that filler was used on the custom made aluminum bodies of high quality, high dollar, cl***ic era cars.(can't use lead on aluminum) I have never seen a case where it was used heavily, but it was applied thick enough to correct for minor imperfections and facilitate surfacing. I have seen cases where that filler was 45 years old and holding up fine. Not sure whether the product was linseed, lacquer, enamel, or ? based. Whatever it was, I'm sure it wasn't nearly as good as what can be had today.
Bondo is not all bad, it has gotten a bad name from being used incorrectly and when the stuff origionally came out it was ****. If you have a seam or a joint between 2 panels lead is by far superior. When the lead is applied correctly it will adhere and flex with the body of the car without any shrinkage. When I was a dumb *** high school kid with no working knowledge of anything bodywise I applied a 2 1/2 inch skim cote of bondo to the left qtr panel, stuff never fell out after 2 years, it was the incorrect repair...but I was stupid. I will use lead anytime I get the chance now because I like to work with it and my metal file gets lonely if I leave it in the toolbox too long.
Did a partially rotted window frame and molding that way. Dug out all the wood rot and built it back up. Between bondo and Great Stuff expanding urethane foam, I'm a demon on rust repair. Now my car that's another story, it's aluminum, no filler, no paint, no polish. Trying to get it to look like a DeLorean.
The quality of the lead you use is key. Melted down tire weights and sinkers might be good for ballast but will try your patience trying to get it to work. Start small and keep at it. You'll get the hang of exactly how much heat to apply without it suddenly running off onto your shoe after a while. Good Luck...just keep thinking of all the artists that worked with lead back in the old days when thats all there was...it's a lost art.
Well as it is in the pic, it is in need a little filler of some kind down near the bead... I am not knocking it because it looks fantastic, better than I can do now no doubt, but frankly, "no filler of any kind" ain't going to make it for most of us regular car guys. I can respect the fact that you probably aren't done with that fender, but in my book it looks almost close enough for filler. I hate to mention it, but even primer is "filler", and with today's primer, a 16th of an inch is nothing.... To me this issue kind of rings about the same tone as a lot of other issues where 95% is not good enough, so it ends up that 95% of the time, effort, and money gets spent on the last 5% of improvement. There IS a point of diminishing return, no matter how damn good a person is at what they do. And back on topic for this thread, I have done some lead work and I got reasonably good at it, but apart from seams etc, it is a damn waste of time. Sorry, but today's filler is that good. And,,,, the rent is too damn high!!
Welcome to the HAMB! Back to the topic call Brad Masterson you can sqeeze alot of lead in a flat rate box from the post office for 8 bucks! If you get some lead and need guidance pm me I'll give ya my number and help as much as I can. Dave Hitch
To answer your question. Try Steve's auto restorations website. (www.stevesautorestorations.com) They have instructional video and sell the materials also.
If bondo had come first and then lead came along, everybody would be saying "I don't want lead in my car, I want bondo like they did back in the good old days". They don't make stuff like they used to. Guess what, they never did. Any product will or will not work. It's more important how good the craftsmanship is. How good it's applied. That's the important thing. Now go ahead and rip into me. Thanks.
Thanks for all the information. I will take up any offers you bring to the table. I'm trying to locate some local people around me. I "messed" with it on junk stuff to get a feel for it. I liked how I could shape it and make any design I tried with it. I wish there was some more good information on Bill Hines. instead of Barris speaking over him in every video clip.
I saw those Bill Hines / Barris clips....not bad though. There's some good video footage and instructional info on You Tube. I'm looking to get into doing lead work as well.
You obviously did not read what I said- I made no exaggerated claims I simply said no need for huge amounts of filler if the work is done right. I guarantee I can carry out a repair and finish it to the standard in the photo of the A wing as quick as most could mig a patch in and fill it to that same stage so there is excuses for not using the correct skills. I have built aluminium bodies that have been polished so no primer. I also make bumpers and br*** radiator shells that are chrome plated so no filler of any kind. But that is off subject. It is not a case of Lead or filer, both can be a botch if done wrong, by far the best way to repair is to dress out the metal to a good finish before any other work is done. Anyone can do this if they use the right methods, you don't need lots of machines and it does not take longer than miging patches in and filling the misshapen results. I can't help with the first part of the original question IE. where to buy the lead because I am in the UK but I can help with the second part which is where to get a good DVD teaching lead work. Lead work is only a very small part of the job though, it should be the last in a long list of processes.
Ok on on the other part I have been looking into the right tinning product. what stuff do you guys like using? Thanks for the tips on using steel wool. I saw a clip of bill Hines but it was hard to make out what he said he uses.
Bill and many others used Dutchboy tinning ****er w/mercury in it. If you weld over a section that had been tinned with that you will get a white flash as it burns off. Looks allot like you thermostat with a mercury switch when it turns on the heat or cool. oh and it's not good for you! Do believe now he is using the muratic/hydrochloric cut zinc, available thru radiator supply companies. Gave never met him to ask him but have seen the videos.
I don't care if Jesus Christ himself did the metal work, to have a show quality, mirror-like finish in paint, it's going to take at least a little filler here and there. If not that, then definitely a good blocking of a high build primer, which in principle is the same thing. Nothing wrong with it. But even real killer metal work like the fender pictured, if it went straight to paint with no blocking, is going to have some imperfections.
Walt Scadden's book provides a nice lead overview as well. Work safe folks. Vintageride http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=502519&highlight=scadden_
I read what you said, but my point is that this thread (as usual) has taken a turn of sorts, "if you finish the metal right, you don't need filler". Your photo allowed me a visual so I used it. Besides, in the above quote you said you don't NEED filler on at least some of your metal work, The fact of the matter is that metal finishing to the point where no filler of any kind is needed, is WAY beyond the ability level of MOST regular car guys, just a fact. I admire your ability, but my admiration of your work does nothing to improve my abilities. I have been actually working with sheet metal for a couple of years, I went to a Ron Covell seminar and watched it be done, very impressive, but fact is, I tried my hand at metal finishing (again) over the weekend, I had a spot in my hood that was perhaps 1/16th low, by the time I was done "finishing", I would have been better off just filling it with filler. Sometimes I do ok with metal finishing, other times not so ok. Yea, I would love to be able to get my car done with no filler, I don't want to spend 10 more years getting it perfect, just not going to, for me the "law of diminishing returns" is in play. Lets be honest, for guys who have the talent, and have had the time to develop this talent, my hat is off to all of you. For most of us regular guys, no "filler" is just a pie in the sky idea. I have seen enough to know that SOMETIMES, even though bare metal looks perfect, once the blocking starts, it becomes obvious it really is not "balls on perfect" ready for paint. Shimmering steel or aluminum has a way of disguising some imperfections that will show through like a sore thumb once paint is applied.
Be careful before you jump on this bandwagon. I met a guy who has a beautiful '40's Chrysler, very nice, except the paint has split and checked, only in the area where lead body work was done in the 50's.
To the Guys who are nit picking over the scratches visible on the model A 'fender' I never said that it would not need any preparation before it was painted. when a part is to be chrome plated it takes a lot more prep work on the metal before it can be chromed. It took four hours to make the patch for this 'fender' weld it and finish it to the standard in the photo. I don't think your rule of diminishing returns has any relevance. I don't teach the methods that Ron Covelle teaches I don't agree with his repair techniques. I have taught many people these skills in my roll as a lecturer at Colchester Ins***ute here in the UK and at my workshop. Its not that hard to carry out a repair like the one on the A 'fender' if you use the correct techniques. What you are saying is because you cant get it perfect its not worth trying but to me spending a little of the time you would normally spend plodding up a car on trying to improve your steelwork is well worth doing. I think Jesus Christ was the son of a carpenter not a panel beater so I don't know how good he is at panel repairs.
Is that what I said? I don't remember saying that, what I think I said is that I don't have the skill to metal finish so well that I won't need filler, as I suspect 90% (conservatively) of the posters on this forum are in the same boat. Kudos to you and those like you, congratulations!! Some folks have a propensity for one skill or another some don't. I have taken a few golf lessons, fact is, no matter how many lessons I might take, I will never be a golf pro, I simply lack the natural ability. I would LIKE to be good at golf, (did you know that even some "smart people" **** at golf? ) and I would like to be good enough to metal finish with no filler but as of now I don't have the skill. Ironically, the reason I posted to this thread at all, is the few posts implying that if a person needs filler for a repair it is not worth doing at all. (read the thread) This happens all the time here, then you tell me this (above quote)???? Wow, talk about turning the tables...... There is no doubt, metal finishing is the best way, I would love to learn but it will take me lots of time. I LOVE to see excellent workmanship here on the HAMB, this is not my issue, I want to see all of the exceptional work, but I don't like the perception that if something can't be done "perfect" it should not be done. And yea, the law of diminishing returns usually always applies about almost everything, when it doesn't, we become a society that wont get much of anything done. (I mean really, if the fenders had been made twice as thick to start with they would have held up better) And so what,,, if I "plod up" my car I will just get another one. They were m*** produced. Who brought up Jesus? I guess I missed that post.
Hey, I haven't seen a can of the mercury containing "Dutchboy'' tinning compound in thirty years! I think that's when the *******s outlawed its' sale! It wasn't a "****er', but a can of what looked like gray sand mixed in oil. The great thing about it was that you usually got a good tin right off without having to go back and reflux the areas you were trying to paddle lead over (I'm not always that lucky with today's fluxes) when in a hurry. If you can't locate a radiator shop or solder supply, try Granger or McMaster Carr, they both sell soldering products. Be sure to go back and research the HAMB on leading and the tools & supply sources. This subject comes up bout once every six weeks. " do not be too quick to drink the Kool-Aid "
Don't know why I feel I need to jump in here... Metal finish on a model a fender is a much easier thing than metal finish on a part like a hood or decklid or door because of the crown and the lack of braces behind the panels I realize this is a obvious point. There are not many guys who will pay to have a 57 T-bird hood metal finished (remove the skin from the frame, remove minor waves to metal finish, replace skin) when the minor lows can be filled in a few minutes and move on to primer. The best repair is a metal finish. A true craftsmans way but you will end up eating hours and have a hard time making a living. (unless you are on the high end, Dusey's, Arrow's, Ferrari's ect...) The other side is the out and out mud slingers... I don't care how much they turn out, it is still ****. Somewhere in the middle is where most guys fall. As far as lead, I buy mine from http://www.johnsonmfg.com/ Usually 1/2 the price of Eastwood.
Oh yea, make sure to wipe off the bare metal areas around the lead with baking soda and water to neutralize the acid you used to tin it or else you will have surface rust all over. The SAR lead video is ok info. Too funny when Steve is talking about tickling you lovers **** with a feather. When we watched it at the shop we all laughed.
I looked at the Johnson product pack and the Eastwood product pack...both the same price and both seem to contain the same stuff. Anyone have any comments on either of them that would help me make a decision? Anyone ever use the Eastwood autobody tools (sandbags, mallets, hammers, etc...) and do they last or are they cheaply made?
So interesting to me how a guy comes on here to ask a very simple question and the thread turns into an embarr***ing ******* contest!!! Too bad!!!
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