Someone decided long ago to install a 283/4-speed in my 32 pickup by massaging the K-member with a torch wrench. They also used said wrench on the rear crossmember to get a '35 straight spring to fit the curved crossmember. I have aquired mint replacement crossmembers...my question is: Can these be bolted in rather than riveted back in? I don't know of anyone around here that owns a rivet gun. I don't want to weld them in. Would the bolts have to be a certain grade?...inquiring minds...
The nice thing about rivits is there is no clearance between the rivit and the hole. I've replaced rivit with Grade 8 bolts in the past. Match reamed the holes so the bolt had to be lightly hammered into place. No issues yet.
Larry Rivets is going to be the more period correst route. But I would bolt them in a New York minute. We used to bolt fish plates into broken UPS truck chassis and never had a problem. I would probably use grade 8 USF and some red loctite as you shouldn't be removing the bolts for any reason, right?
During my Off Road truck building days we would always remove the rivets and "ream" the holes to size and use regular grd8 bolts and washers and use the all steel lock (upset)nuts. Make sure you use fine thead bolts(root dia is larger than coarse and strech less)
Larry,I would think you could bolt them in with grade 8 bolts but I would weld them,,just thinking that it would be much stronger. HRP
In many aircraft applications "close tolerance" bolts are used in place of rivets. I agree with those who advise tight fitting bolts, either grade 5 or 8 would be adequate for the application. Aircraft bolts, while closer to grade 5, have the advantage of a longer shank/less thread for a given length, compared to hardware store bolts, which allows the use of a shorter bolt while having the shank portion through both (or all) the pieces being bolted together for a better fit and corresponding shear load distribution. Aircraft bolts are readily available on line from several distributors. Ray
One day somebody should explain to people that grade 8 bolt have a lower shear strength than grade 5. Grade 8 has a higher tensile strength but will break rather than bend when stressed sideways. Especially when stress is applied with two plates(Ie frame plates or cross members) The poster who said to use fine thread is correct. The fine thread will not have tendency to vibrate loose or corrode as fast as well as having a higher strength due to a smaller reduction in diameter at the thread. Frame rivets are hot rivited not done with a gun. If you have an oldtime blacksmith in your area they should be able to rerivet your frame. Or you could tig weld the crosmembers in from the bottom and weld the rivets in place as well.
Go to aircraft bolts, not SAE. History: Rolls-Royce once upon a time used frames assembled with bolts rather than rivets...but they made their own special bolts for the job with some sort of taper on the shank area. Each bolt was then hand fitted by a mechanic using a matching reamer to get the starting depth for the taper to advance from just so!
Holy shit, Larry.........your description sounds like what I found lurking under my '33 Ford PU! Same driveline too. Must have been a popular option back then....!
I agree, maybe the metalurgical books say this (as there is probably some merit to the statement, I'd guess) but c'mon...
I like this idea. weld the x members in then weld the rivets from the back. you get the look and don't have to worry about it
A fancy rivet gun isn't needed, you can do it the "he man" way. I know there are some threads on here or the FordBarn that talk about the procedure, or provide links to pages with "how-tos". Here's a post from the FordBarn: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showpost.php?p=34921&postcount=5 Huh? The Ford frames aren't tempered. That is incorrect. Grade 8 is stronger is both shear and tension. Again, there are numerous threads on here (and elsewhere) discussing this "Grade 5 vs. Grade 8" misconception.
With rivets and bolts. DOH This never weld is posted by someone with a welded chassis wrapped around a pair of nailheads as an icon. Edit: Never mind it is just fodder for an arguement.
I would just bolt it up but if you are concerned enough to want a tight fit, use a Hi-Lok. It is an aircraft tight fit bolt with a locking nut.
I took sentences from this thread to form the explanation below. Welding was limited and frames were rivited to flex with all the rough unpaved roads. Rivets meant that unskilled labor could assemble the frame, thus the frame cost less. Also, riveting was mainstream for quite a long time. Skyscrapers were built with all of the girders riveted together.
The refference was to a OEM truck frame and not a fabricated one. As far as the IVO 4-engine car all engine mounts are bolted to the frame with 2 piece saddle clamps.
Yes you can bolt crossmembers in. I have many ol cars with bolted in crossmembers. Every single one shows enormous wear on the bolts where the crossmembers flexed. There is a reason that the factory used rivets. Each rivet is forced to expand and totally fill its hole. They do not flex. Rivets are NOT installed with a 'rivet gun'. They are hammered in so they expand and fill the hole
Edit: I am really trying to avoid the drama today. I am familiar with the IVO 4 engine car although it has been since it was a new car that I have been up close to it. Mr Ivo although a little younger was a contemporary of the Ol' Man. His acquaintances allowed me to get up close to a lot of things that the average young person only saw in a magazine. I guess if I were to be more arguementative I would ask you how the chassis was held together. There is a cage and some rails that keep everything in align if I am not mistaken. Never the less no reason to respond unless you just feel the need to be vindicated. It really doesn't matter one way or another.
This advanced search in Fordbarn Model A will give a bare starting point...there is a bunch more. Keyword(s): rivet Search Entire Posts Search Titles Only Search by User Name Marco Tahtaras Welding was NOT a limited process at Ford in 1932...Ford was a world leader in automated welding processes, and routinely did some pretty wild things far beyond assembling a stack of steeel channels. They riveted frames as a matter of choice, not default. I think in this case a welded frame would have been designed differently. Welding with good penetration would not only have altered the steel, it would introduce a very stiff area at each crossmember root on a rather limber structure, which is to say stress riser. If frame had been welded, it would have been designed differently... By the way, there are a couple of welds, maybe more, in each* stock deuce frame, though they are not structural in nature once frame is together. Can any of youse all find some welds??? *except for a few very early ones, which is a clue!
Bruce the last time I was close enough to an original duece frame to look for welds I was too busy trying to retain my composure to really look for anything. Don't really care too much to own a duece but I would give a testicle to own a duece chassis.
Ivo's car was not built with tempered material and the lost of strenth by welding was replaced by MASS (weight was not an issue) Its called E-N-G-I-N-E-E-R-I-N-G Will there be catestropic failure- I dont think so not like the Ford class 8 off road truck that broke along the welds where the roll cage attached, cab was 40 yards ahead of the truck bed.
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