First engine build: 8ba Ford Flathead

I'll start off here, by saying that I don't know anything about anything.

With luck, saying that will get me positive reinforcement.

A good while back, I saw a video that someone posted here of an "in car" ride in a flathead powered car. The sound of the engine really sold me; I set out searching locally for a flathead for my own car project.

The car is a 27 T Coupe. It's got a Model A styled frame built by Riley Automotive, a 9 inch rear from Bronco Connection, SoCal and Pete and Jake's components.

The chassis was put together by MrFord and the gang at Crushproof in Austin, TX. I just didn't feel competent enough to put it together myself for safety's sake. All the bondo and patch panels are from the previous owner; please don't get the wrong idea here.



A year ago, I found an ad in Craigslist for a "59ab flathead" for $450. The guy advertised it as a 59ab engine, but when I showed up at his house, it turned out to be an 8ba. I got it home and it sat in my garage for the better part of a year.

Meanwhile, I'd fall asleep most nights reading Ron Bishop's "Rebuilding the Famous Ford Flathead", Tex Smith's "The Complete Ford Flathead" or "How to build Ford Flathead V-8 Horsepower" by George McNicholl. Hell, last night I had a flathead dream even.



In late November, I suffered a heart attack at the ripe old age of 41. With nothing to do at the house, I spent a lot of time reading the H.A.M.B.. Seeing Ryan's blog entry about his Flathead journey inspired me to get off of my duff and into the garage to put the engine up on a stand and take a look at it.



(As an aside, if someone can tell me the proper method to transfer an engine from a hoist to an engine stand, I'd sure appreciate it. My method looked something like a monkey fornicating a football.)

I was pleasantly surprised as the head bolts for the engine came out with just a ratchet. I didn't expect that, after reading the stories about them breaking a lot. I loosened them all so I could just run them out with a speed handle.
The intake was another surprise; I started to wonder if the bolts were actually torqued correctly. I lifted the intake off and removed the gasket. Wow, I was excited to see how clean it was in there, especially after seeing the recent "Sludge" posts here.

I could recognize that it still had the solid lifters installed so I can guess that the previous owners wouldn't surprise me with a Mercury crank in the bottom end. I guess any crank in the bottom end would be a surprise.

Humor there, ya see?



After all of these fasteners being so cooperative, I decided to tackle the water pump removal. I had read that these were going to be a pain and / or break fasteners because of the bolts used within the water path. It took a little more effort, but they both came out with just a ratchet.

After that I started the oil draining, because I figured that it would take a while to completely drain out in preparation for rotating the engine over for the bottom end dis-assembly.

Getting down low on the engine to do this, I noticed what looked like evidence of previous leaks where the dipstick connects to the pan. Hopefully one of you kind folks would tell me how something like that gets repaired. It looks like rivets connect the tube to the pan.



So with the oil flowing into the catch container, I moved back to the driver's side head. I ran the rest of the bolts out, and popped the head off. After all of the ease so far, I was greeted by potential heartbreak:






The number six cylinder was full of dry rusty goop. I suspect that this cylinder is why I couldn't turn the engine over by hand. I broke it up and vacuumed it out and took a closer look:



The white stuff on the piston makes me think water damage, which I hope doesn't mean the block is cracked. I didn't look at the combustion chamber in the head yet, maybe the head is cracked.

It also appears that the left bank is sleeved; can someone verify from this pic? I did read that some engines were sleeved from the factory so I'm not that disturbed about it, just curious.



So that's where the engine sits for today. I figured I'd let the oil drain over night before I attempt to rotate the engine over for the bottom end dis-assembly. I have a couple more questions:

I'm planning on changing the heads, intake, etc. (I would love to have a good pair of the high altitude stock heads) I'm certainly not going to buy any of these parts until I am sure that I have the sound foundation of a good block. Should I scrap the old hardware? Do other people need them for restoration or anything?

Is there any hardware or parts that come off during this kind of dis-assembly that are irreplaceable or need to be saved / protected for sure?

I did a lot of searching on both the Early Ford site and here, trying to figure out if there's a reliable and good machine shop to do work on this for me. Most of the posts are so old, that I don't know if it's worth calling the places that they recommend. Anyone know of the current good place to bring the block for work in Austin or central Texas?

Thanks all, I appreciate all that I've learned from you folks here. I'll update this thread with my continuing work on the engine.

-Nev

 

how refreshing - a NOT 'know it all' actually acknowledging that (like most of us) each project is a learning experience. I haven't fiddled with flatties in a while, so I won't presume to answer any of your questions. Just want to welcome you and wish you best of luck

dj

 

very cool read... I'm subscribing to this one!! Thanks!

 

Very cool project!

Soak that stuck piston with some PB blaster, atf, or seafoam to ease removal.

Get a engine parts organizer tray that you can put all the removed parts in as you disassemble the thing. It will keep everything in order and save you lots of headaches later on. Before removing the rods, stamp the outer edge of each rod and cap the with the corresponding cyl # if they don't already have a number there. If your hardware is in good shape, I see no reason not to reuse it. I've never seen a flathead that didn't have a dribble of oil emanating from the dipstick tube area.

Another thing I like to do is get a package of brown paper lunch bags. As you remove hardware, label a bag with what it contains. ex. "water pump bolts" or "oil pan bolts". Then you can fold them all up, tuck them in a box under the bench and you'll have everything at hand to re-assemble with no guesswork later on.

 

Thanks for the reminder; I have to pick up a set of those number stamps.

If anyone in the Central Texas area has a flathead valve removal tool, and wants to sell / trade it, please PM me. Otherwise, I'm going to have to order one of those with a quickness.

In the books that I've read, they talk about how the cam bearings are babbit, and that they should be removed before I get the block dipped. Is there a special tool for removing those?

Lastly, how about the whole machining process: Do I have to find a separate company that hot tanks / acid dips a block, or does the machine shop handle that? Keep in mind, I've never done the process before.

 

There are certain c-clamp style spring compressors that will work on a flathead block, usually a smaller one is better. Most will not fit.

The machine shop you choose should have the capability to clean the block before any work is done. If they don't, find another shop. They will also have a cam bearing installation/removal tool. For the cost, you should probably have new ones installed.

 

very well documented already! shortly i will be doing this myself so good luck and keep up the good work!

 

Subscribed!

 

Best of luck David! Im here if I can help you out in any way... I have had great luck with the guys at Precision Machine in Waco, and Kevin Silva at Classic Jag here in town knows a thing or two about flatties.

 

I am in the process of doing the same thing up here in spokane. I got like and actually got a running engine but opened it up anyway. It looks real good, still has excellent crosshatch in all cyl. no prob. with main or rod brgs either. Will reassemble with all new gaskets and rebuilt h2o pumps,carb and starter.

 

That's wonderful ford flathead. I think i'm also gonna do it to mine.

 

Disassemble it down to the bare block, then off to a machine shop for block cleaning.
Then have checked for cracks.

After that you have a solid foundation to start over.

Measure everything and put all the parts in boxes and label them.

 

BTW i like T coupes on A frames alot!

Another good thing, you already have a transmission!

 

Hey HotRodMicky. Are those the process?

 

I've built a few flatheads, but am always learning new tips and tricks. I'll subscribe! I agree with thunderbirdesque, bag and label everything! Some of those flathead bolts are hard to find at the local hardware store!!!! I use ziplocks myself. Im less prone to dumping them out when digging for the correct bag that way....

 

Much good advice. Thunderbirdesq said you should stamp the rods & caps with the cylinder number. Since you've read some of the books, you probably know that Ford doesn't number cylinders the same way everybody else does (position on the crank). Rather it's 1-2-3-4 from front to back on the passenger side. If you already knew that disregard this message.

 

Hey Nev
Ive just spent the best of of the last year looking at and breaking down 3 flatheads to find a good one.
i have many spare parts from the 2 dead ones sitting in my garage. if you need any help or have any questions let me know.
jay

 

I'd strip the block down to the point where nothing is still bolted or pressed on, labeling and bagging as mentioned, then dig out as much rust, casting sand and small insects as possible from the water passages. Use wire coathangers, or solid copper wires to snake around the water passages, roll the block around and do it again.
I got about a full coffee can worth of sand out of the 8BA I rebuilt.
It seems like a lot of work, but my flattie will not overheat. I ran it in the past 2 4th of July parades in 100 degree heat with no problem.
Next, find a machine shop with flathead experience, and get on a first name basis with the man actually doing the work.
Beware of all the books on the subject. They tend to disagree with each other on several points. One even has the wrong firing order.
Trust the gurus on Fordbarn. Especially Rodnut and JWL.
Good luck and have fun.

 

Nevala
You've got an interesting looking motor there. With the lifter valley so clean (super low miles?) and the bores so nasty (stored with no love) you have your work cut out for yourself. Maybe we can all chip in a little here so here is my 2 cents.

New hardware allways sets off any rebuild real nicely. I do it to my rebuilds and gotta say buy a whole hardware kit if you can sooo much cheaper and easier than 20 trips to your hardware store.

Now the typical oilpan/dipstick leak. You may find in your literature the "upgrade" of replacing the worn and sloppy rivets with bolts and nylocks.
See photos.

And I dream about motors too.

 

Someone has a repair kit for the dipstick problem,speedway I think,also check for small cracks around the rivet hole's.I had to weld mine up and re drill the hole's.

 

Good luck with your project.

 

Looks like the damage is mostly from sitting outside sometime in its life and getting a cylinder with some water or mouse pee in it. I'd guess it was a rebuild with very few, if any, miles on it that was let go to waste. Looks like a sleeve all right, but don't let that put you off. It will take more than that to keep it from being a decent engine. Just eyeballing it, it looks like a '49-early '51 engine.

 

Looks to me since the intake valve on that cylinder is open, and probably has been for a long time, that that cylinder may have gotten filled with water at some point through the intake. If so, there may be no major problem there and a typical rebuild might just clean it all up. Good luck, I hope it turns out well. One of these days I'll finish the rebuild on the 8BA that I've had sitting around for 3 years now.

 

I wouldn't worry about that cylinder at all - you can tell from the rust in the intakes that the most likely cause was water down the carb, valve was open . . . went and filled the cylinder. You'll be boring it out anyway, and even if it is rusted bad, they'll just put a sleeve in that cylinder.

I start with hot-tanking and magnafluxing . . . to make sure the block is good before you invest in any dipping, tumbling, sonic testing, etc.. Once you know you have a good block, then the rebuild is just standard flathead stuff -- plenty of good books out there, plenty of knowledge on the HAMB and FordBarn.

Keep in mind, there is a lot of BS out there related to flatheads - usually spewed by folks who have never done much flathead work. Read as much as you can, find a good machine shop that knows flatheads and ask a LOT of questions. Also, know your budget -- it will determine how far you go, how many "go fast" goodies you buy, etc.. If you have a good idea of what you can afford to spend on the machine work and parts, then you might want to post back - there are plenty of us who can then recommend where to spend your money (unless you can spend as much as you want!).

Also - you need to decide WHAT TYPE of flathead you're looking for. Is this a nice stout street engine that you want to drive the heck out of . . . or maybe a bad-ass drag motor, or a blown cubic-money motor, etc.. All these things come into play when you're headed down the flathead first-build path.

Another thing to note is what is the complete package you're thinking about --> Engine, transmission, rear-end, gear ratio, tire diameter, etc.. What car, approximate weight, etc.. All of this can come into play for component selection.

Feel free to PM me . . . I'm always willing to help those who want to "keep it flat"

 

Ditto on the Ziplocks...I like the Freezer Ziplocks...they are stronger and have a place to write on with a sharpie.

New hardware also gives piece of mind...not having to worry about what a 60 plus year old bolt has been through when you are running at full throttle is good for a lot!

 

Thanks everyone!

I soaked each cylinder with deep creep, and have been letting it sit for a while. Of course being excited, I expected it to have broken free after an hour and be spinning by force of ambient wind.

No dice.

So I've been letting it soak, and I'll be going out this afternoon to see where it's at. For the hardware, I've got a bunch of ziplock bags and sharpies, and I'll bag it and tag it. The mains and rod hardware I'm going to put back in place so I don't get those mixed up.

Here's a question: All the books talk about pulling the valve guide assemblies down with just the help of a pickle fork looking tool, and a lot of discussions I've seen here talk about using a spring compressor tool. Which tool do I need to track down or do I need both? Why?

The engine is going into a 27 Ford Coupe. Rear end gearing is 3.50 with a detroit locker right now. I want to be able to drive the car on the highway, I don't think I'll have the money to go racing.

 

Good Luck Nevala, subscribed!

 

TIP#1 Take plenty of photos with notes -before you take it apart- so as to remember how it fits together. TIP#2: Make sure you mark the main bearing caps and the rod bearing caps BEFORE you disassemble. Don't interchange them. Reinstall them right away so as not to loose them. TIP#3: To bolt engine to engine stand run a piece of chain from rear right hand intake bolt to front left hand intake bolt and lift with engine hoist. Bolt engine stand adapter to bellhousing, hoist up engine and slide adapter tube into engine stand. An engine levelor makes this easier, but is not required.

 

take the wooden handle of the hammer and tap the piston top squarely, give it a good thud once in a while, it will help the creep get in where it needs

 

The problem I had with this was the hoist's legs and the stand's legs were both in the way of each other. Perseverance, leverage and a few signals from the caller to "promenade left", I got the engine passed over.