Chrome Straight axle - Almost got me bumped at tech - WTF

Is there a way to have a part chromed and not worry about the embrittlement issue? Any process around it? I thought I remembered Shakey Puddin' writing something about it.

Nevermind.....just read a few posts up...answered it for me.

 

If enough carbon is absorbed into steel, ex:carburizing a surface, it will become more brittle. Keep adding carbon and eventually the steel alloy becomes "cast-iron-like" having more carbon than is healthy for suspension parts. In electroplating one free-ranging element is hydrogen which can enter the iron or steel lattice. Good idea to bake it out.

 

While I understand your thinking, I explained several reasons why things are as they are. I am not "blaming" anyone, I am only relating how things are done. Agree or not, that's how it is. Believing things should be different doesn't change reality. The plater can't be relied on to know what the parts are, and is in no position to assume how they will be used. Parts are not routinely baked, and if a part needs to be baked it's up to the costumer to request it. Like most things, there are all sorts of specs, measurements, and tests for plating. As a customer it is possible to specify not only baking, but every other every aspect of the job. Although some shops lack the sophistication to do this, and a walk-in customer might have trouble getting such service, industrial customers often specify many of those parameters on their jobs and pay accordingly. Baking may or may not be one of the things specified.

Agreed, I know of shops that have no provisions to bake parts. Because they don't have that capability doesn't make their plating "improper".

I doubt anything I say will change your stance on this. If you take away anything from what I have said it should be; "don't assume a plater is going to bake your parts without you asking".

 

I would think someone out there would have done some lab testing to prove or disprove these theories....it wouldn't be that hard to do...

 

I was in a specialized plating and anodizing plant that plated some stuff for NASA. Among the things they plated was the engine support for L1011 Loadstars. To prevent hydrogen embrittlement when they cad plated this piece, they built a special vacumn chamber. After the chamber reached a certain vacumn the vaporized cadium on a pair of buss strips in the chamber and the cadium plated its self on to the charged parts. They also did some multiple step plating on some rocket fuel fittings like putting gold on the mating surfaces, hard chrome on the threads and some other type plating on the inside of the passage ways. They had a special built tank to anodize aluminum sailboat masts. The brakeage critical engine supports were the only thing they worried about hydrogen embrittlment on. I have heard it was necessay to bake chromed hood springs but thats all I would worry about.

 

The faster you go the more attention you draw. . This has been standard practice among the faster cars for a long time. They want to see stress cracks if they occur. . No car is too cool to be bumped, and you are not too cool to be injured or lose your life in it.

What did your scout turn? This has everything to do with it.

You may feel like they are picking on you but in the end they just do not want you to harm yourself. Could be that they had a recent incident. It's getting harder every day to operate one of these facilities with the insurance rates and regs.
One thing is for certain, if you run it and have an occurrence the attorney will be all over the tech inspector.

 

Some tech discussions remind me of over-protective parents, getting all worked up over nothing.

 

I've been told that the worries of "hydrogen embrittlement" mostly applies to tubular parts where the inside of the chromed part doesn't get the same cleaning and plating treatment as the outside of the part. This would apply to chrome tube axles, motorcycle & bicycle frames, etc. I thought that this is more of a concern when the part is mild steel tubing, rather than chromoly tubing. Most dragster axles & suspension components are 4130 chromoly tubing, as are bicycle frames, and all of those are often chrome plated. Motorcycle frames are usually mild steel tubing, which are usually not chrome plated.

I dunno, that's just what I heard from some dude.

If NHRA/IHRA tech was so concerned of this, then they should have even more concern on rollcages, bars, and race car chassis that have been painted or powdercoated...where filler can easily applied and the paint/powder can hide any cracks or imperfections. Maybe they'll start X-Raying the parts to check for cracks... but that would probably take alot of cars of the track.

 

Like most other rodders, I like fast anything - A few years back I built an experimental aircraft (Kitfox, not fast but fun) and most of it is chromoly- had the landing gear chromed and the shop offered to bake them. I just looked at it as insurance. Not bragging, but I'm a certified TIG welder (or weldor if you prefer) and hydrogen embrittlement is a real issue with chromoly.

 

I'm not taking sides, but there's almost no load on the front axle of a dragster. The weight on those cars is 2 blocks away.

 

Don't read too much into the situation. The truck had not yet made a pass and it was the first time it had been at a track since the rebuild. Ultimately the truck went 11.31 but the Scout has all the safety stuff to run in the 9's (Trans shields, balancer, belts, full cage etc). In fact they issued me a warning for not having an approved racing jacket after the 11.31 pass.

The tech guys were very good and took an extended amount of time to go through the Scout and make sure it was good to go. Something I really appreciated. The issue with the chrome axle was stated as fact but I was allowed to run with the promise that I would change it for next year. (last race of the season). I had planned to pull the axle and re-chrome it anyway so the plan simply changes to powder coating it silver and buffing it up. (Same effect and legal)

The whole concept of no chrome on the front end simply caught me off gaurd

 

i do see your side of it...... kinda....but i think its part of the world we live in now....no one claims responsibility for anything....not my job...is often heard....10 years ago i never heard of hydrogen imbritlement....i would have just been some dumb kid who wanted shiny parts... i would have just took them to a plater ,picked them up and bolted it on ....but thats why i take things to someone ...its not my expertise....obviously if you have a plating bussiness or work in the industry you would know about H.I.....maybe people were just smarter in my grandpas generation or maybe service was better , but it doesnt take much for the guy at the counter to say sir this looks like some kind of structural part...do you know about hydrogen embrittlement?..... i think even my mom could look at a valve cover or a spindle or motorcycle frame and realise one looks like it does something and the other does not

 

Ok, something that no one else addressed in all the finger pointing and I did's and they did's. What shape is the chrome on that axle in now? Is it an old axle with tired chrome that might be flaking a bit in spots or ????? If you are thinking about having it redone before next season that might mean that the axle looks a bit suspect as it sits right now.

 

The tech was definitely worried about hydrogen embrittlement for sure. I worked with a guy that bought a T-bucket that had been built years ago. The entire rearend housing was chromed. You would not ... i mean WOULD NOT believe how much welding had been done to the housing ... to repair cracks in the housing and axle tubes (sorry, no pics, just going off memory here). You'd think a T-bucket wouldn't put much stress on parts like the rearend housing, but ... after reading about H/E (years ago), I am positive that the chrome job was responsible for the housing cracking.


I once read a magazine article several years ago, on the subject of chroming and H/E and the final sentence of the article went something like ... "personally, I would never chrome any part of a suspension PERIOD".

It might not be just a techie having a bad day, it may very have to do with the sanctioning bodies insurance requirements.


Stripping the chrome off and painting the axle will get you through tech (only because they will have no idea that it was ever chromed, or in the event of running into the same tech guy, will probably assume you changed it out for a painted one ... what will your answer be if he asks if you simply stripped and painted it?) but it does not reverse any potential damage (H/E) caused by the initial chrome job. This isn't a rule created to equalize the racecars, this rule is about safety.

 

I looked through the NHRA rulebook and coudn't find anything banning chrome plated front axles. As said by several posters, there are many chrome axle cars out there that have been running for years.

 

The chrome on the front axle was original from back in the 70's. It was pitted and a few rust flakes but nothing serious. My plan to rechrome was to bring it up to today's spec and look better all around.

I want to be very clear here... the Tech guys were not being dicks about the issue, they were doing their jobs and I appreciated it. I have plans of coming into the states to run some nostalgia events and possibly even showing up at the HAMB drags some year. I would rather hear about the chrome issue the first day at the track rather than after a 1000 mile drive. These guys did me a favor. Like I said, it was something I had not heard about and it simply caught me off gaurd and I simply wanted to know if this was true and if anyone else has ahd the experience. And maybe, just maybe this thread will help someone else avoid a bad situation.

On the same note, it was nice to see a small local track that gave a damn about rules and safety. Watch Pinks All Out and Passtime and you'll see multi million dollar venues that host national events letting all kinds of violations through. No roll bar in a low 10 second car, windows not rolled up, no window net or arm restraints in an open car, no rollbar padding... the list goes on and on.

Overall, and the chrome thing not withstanding, Kudos to our tech guys up here.

 

X2 Saxxon, I'd rather be upset by an honest tech guy's best effort, than deal with the consequences of a less thorough inspection.

 

Most techs are not techs because they provided a resume of experience. The assumption is that they can read, interpret and implement the rules fairly.
I have rarely found this to be true.
Back in '01 I was at the CHHR at Bakersfield. A friend was teching his altered for the first time, a brand new Dyda chassis car. Anyone who's seen Bruce's work, or knows of him knows how nice a product he builds. This tech guy pops a magnetic angle gage on the roll bar and says, "this tube is at the wrong angle, I won't let this car run". So I said, put that gage on the longitudinal tube first to see what angle that is", (because the car was just sitting on the dirt, not a chassis jig. He says, "that won't make any difference". What a moron! But I kept my cool and said, "O.K., then just let me take some air out of the slicks". He says, "no, you can't do that, that would change the angle". I had to leave before I hurt the guy, and because it wasn't even my car.
Point is, whatever reason the tech in this case used, you must be ready to defend your stuff regardless of their reasoning. I might also contact my regional NHRA or IHRA tech director and ask the question, and do tell him what ET's you anticipate running. Just like different chassis ET certifications, that may make a difference.

 

Hydrogen embrittlement is a real issue. Why do you think most hot rod suspension suppliers use polished stainless instead of chrome on their shiny parts?

NASCAR didn't allow chrome wheels for about 20 years. Truth is that they still don't allow real chrome, but the chrome powder coating is close enough that some teams run it.

 

Raced Bowling Green Reunion in 04,05,and 06, Never heard a word from the tech guy about the chrome. In 06 they did a japanese lettuce inspection on me , but it was'nt over the chrome on my rail- !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!