hey after a lot of HAMB research i've come up with my paint plan for my 55 Cadillac. Its my first paint job. The car is in bare metal right now. I live in New York, near the water (so lots of moist air). I'm looking to lay a nice paint job that will last maybe two years until i can afford a pro. And i'm on a super budget. Any adjustments/corrections here would be appreciated. -sand entire car with 80 grit on my orbital sander (don't have a DA) -degrease entire car with 3900s First Klean -2 coats of DP40 (epoxy primer) -spread the mud over minor dings (Quantum by Evercoat) -80 grit the mud -degrease & tack entire car -4 coats of fill primer PPG ncp280 -block entire car with 180/240/320 grit -degrease & tack entire car -2 coats of DP40 (epoxy primer to act as a sealer). -do i block sand here? -Spray 3 coats of color -wet block sand 320/600/800/1000/1500 ? It'll be about 50 to 60 degrees when i start painting. Is that too cold???? How long do i wait for each coat to dry???? I do not own any heat/curing lamps. I'm on a super budget. Only looking for a good paint job, not to win awards. PS - does one gallon cover one coat on a 55 Cad coupe? Thanks!! Ted www.LeatherByTed.com
Block sand everything...each time you hit it sand pare there should be a block used. One gallon of color will not cover a Caddy that big. I used to work in a Cad dealership and have painted many a land yacht. 1 1/2 gallons of enamel or acrylic enamel was typical, sometimes even 2 gallons. especially if your painting the jams. As far as inexpensive paint is concerned... all manufacturers have "second line" products and most are good. I use a fair amount Nason A/E and urethane. Very inexpensive and holds up very well. There is no reason why you should look upon your project as a temporary job to tide you over till you can afford a "real" paint job. You seem to be pretty ****ytical so I don't see any reason why you can't end up with a decent job that you can be proud of and will last a long time. When I spray the first coat I paint it the way I want the last coat to look. I let it tack up til I can touch it lightly (in an out of the place) without sticking to it, sometimes as long as 1/2 hour....but strictly dependent on the paint and the reducer your using. (If you practice first on an old panel you can figure out how wet to spray the first coat without getting any runs.....) I apply each coat the same way...as wet as I can without it running, waiting for it to tack between coats. I usually apply an extra coat that is thinned a little more at the end. If I'm painting a non metallic, it gives me enough extra material to make sure I can color sand it completely flat before buffing. Here's a hint... The longer you let the first coat tack up, the less likely you will be to get runs in the subsequent coats.... I color sand using 1200, 1500, 2000, and sometimes 3000. The 1200 is just to flatten any texture that might be on the surface. by the time I'm finished color sanding the paint is actually starting to like it's been polished...
I agree mostly with Rich except sanding the DP 40, good luck with that, you should use a DP 402LF and the DP no induction time, no sanding. Just spray the color over it in 30 minutes. I never paint anything unless it is 65 degrees as the lowest temp of the day...Good luck and have fun ( I think my first paint job would have been a car the size of a Model A) LOL
What's the problem with sanding DP primer? I wish I could have back all the hours I have spent wet sanding it. Although I have never had a big problem the times I have painting over it fresh, the product does shrink a little. I like to prime, do any repairs needed, let the primer sit it as long as scheduling permits(normally from a couple days to a couple weeks) then sand or scuff as the part dictates, then paint.
Thanks. Another question. If I REALLY need to save money and just want to run flat black primer, does this work: -80 grit the entire car. -one coat of epoxy primer -spread the mud. Sand with 80 grit. -two coats of epoxy primer. -block sand 180/240/320 DONE ??? NOTE - i don't drive in bad weather. Always kept in the garage. Will this last for a year or so?
It is only necessary to use the first clean before you sand the car. Then use final clean just before the color coat or the final sealer and colorcoat. You dont want to get the cleaner in the bondo. One of the first cars that I painted, I saturated the bondo with the rest of the car. After I painted it the bondo fell of in one large chunk!
Stop at the 'two coats of epoxy primer'....It's not meant to be a surfacer, so if you wanna block something put the NCP on it. If you wanna cheap that out some more, subs***ute Shopline primer for NCP (hey, it's gonna end up as powder on the floor anyway, right?) THEN two coats of epoxy. Two years or whenever from now finish sand the epoxy and spray color(or reseal with epoxy, then spray color)
Funny you should ask..... And I live in nice dry air... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=566386
Hey Ted, After you've removed the old finish, and before you've shot the first coat of primer I'd probably use some kinda metal prep on the bare metal and any rust spots. This acid gives a nice ''tooth'' for the primers and kills rust you can't see. Be sure to remove all of the metal prep prior to shooting your primer unless you go with a compatable primer with the phosphoric acid in the prep. I'd jump up to a true urethane primer now that DP no longer contains any heavy metals, it ain't what it use ta be, but what is? Unless you're gonna shoot jus a piss coat of colour, or over thin the top coat (neither of these are ever a good idea) 1.5-1.75quarts will be the minumal amount necessary to cover an 18-20 foot vehicle. I'd never consider shooting finish in weather below 70 degrees, but I live in California. Remember, it's not just the temp at the time you're shooting the job, but also what the temp will be as the solvents and hardeners are out g***ing and kickin at that you have to keep in mind. Cool or cold temps in the shop after the job is shot could lead to problems you don't need. " The real pity in America is that the people who really know how to run the country are all tending bar and cutting hair.''--George Burns
Expensive, yes, but the product sheets I have for the pre-LF series DP primer specifically mention it can be used for high build. In a few cases I have applied it really heavy. Let it sit a while between coats, don't apply too much at once, cure it at room temps for two or more weeks, then sand/scuff. In spite of being used/abused in that way it still works fine.
Yeah, you're right Al......but who can get pre-LF anymore? (I miss the old DP, btw) Even in LF, it's a great product used just like you said I think all the hate comes from .....trying to sand DP is like trying to sand chewing gum
bob sweatt was an early RIDLER AWARD winner [1976 'el toro'] i watched as he painted complete cars in michigan winters in an unheated warehouse, panel by panel! the paint was 'show quality' each time. he allowed the chemical process to 'cure' the paint. then he patiently waited several weeks before started the sanding and the rub-out/ polish process! i came to the conclusion painting in temperatures about 65 degrees or better is 'not' a hard and fast rule! numerous members of the H.A.M.B. [harm's way, care to comment?] are aware of his efforts, in that unheated warehouse. using quality products, years of experience, and patience, rewarded him with a world-cl*** finish. he told me he had built some 3,000 cars in his lifetime. he was still 'scratch-building' cars when he died in 2010! just my 'dos centavos' red
i agree that painting in higher temps is not the only way. i paint all the time in temps in the lower 50s sometimes in the 40s. its no problem thats what they make fast reducers and hardeners for. one thing you do need to watch is your epoxy, the dp 90. most epoxys won't cure under 50-55 deg..check the data sheet that you should get with the paint or on line. allso after you shoot the dp then do your body work. you will need to sand the compleat car before you can shoot any primer on the dp if you go out of the recoat window. check your data sheet the epoxy can be recoated in so many hours after its sprayed after that it needs sanded. check out Southern Polly Urathanes or SPI they have some great products epoxy and primers and i believe they ship free .
3,000 cars? That's one car a week every week for 60 years! Did you maybe accidently enter an extra zero on that number? That would be one hell of an accomplishment...
Let me add one question to the mix. Do you have to spray the clearcoat after the last coat of paint tacks up or can you do it later and if you can do it later, is there anything that you have to do to it to prep it for clear? I'm asking because I'm painting my first vehicle and will be starting with the roof and it will be heavily flaked and not sure how long it will take me and would like to know my options.
If you are speaking about 2-stage style paints/base coat+clear coat-you have a maxium of 24 hours from the last application coat of base color till you have to compleat one coat of clear. I think the clear acts as a catalyist for firming up the base color. Oldmics
My 2 cents, I would finish the mud finer than 80gr. Even if you are not going for a show finish. I would recommend sanding the mud from 80-320 only skipping in 2 grit increments. 80grit scratch with primer on top will end up shrinking and showing sanding scratches because the scratches are too deep. The primer will cover the scratch but will leave voids in the bottom of the 80grit scratch that will eventually cause the primer to shrink down into the scratch thus showing through your paint. With painting, you are only as good as your substrate that you are apply your paint to. The spraying application of the paint is the smallest portion of time you will spend on the entire process. Focus on getting the body & prep work right first and the paint work will look better and last longer.
Hi Ted, mind if I ask if you're in the city or the outer boroughs? Wondering were you're gonna paint a car that size around here. ~ Carl
I would recommend saving some cash to buy all of the stuff to do it right before even messing with it. If you are going to do all of the body work and leave it primered you are almost there for paint. Just my two cents.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
I gota call ******** on painting in cold temps. Maybe some of you guys are getting lucky and getting away with it, but the pretty much all the chemistry were dealing with requires 60 degree min. If it's too cold it won't crosslink. It will more or less cure, but it will lead to all kinds of problems. I won't apply anything in under 65 degrees.I don't know about the rest of you but, I can't afford to strip and refinish a car. If it's worth doing, find a place to do it right.
Right ON the money! You can add an "accelerator" with the hardner/catalyst in some systems (urethane, polyurethane and catalyzed enamels). I use accelerator frequently in lower (60-65 degree F) temps or sometimes to speed the "through" cure of the material even in moderate temps, to get the paint film to harden for quick service, or to recoat (tutone). Using an accelerator in cooler spraying temps is a good idea and if you use accelerator, it's a good idea to practise on some smaller jobs until you get comfortable with the curing properties of the "mix". Also, your thinner/reducer choices may need to be adjusted for cooler temps to make sure the solvents are evaporating at the correct rate to get the proper paint film "flow out" without it running off on the floor, or skinning over and trapping solvents in the paint film. And, remember, that the temperature of the car body/metal will be around 10 degrees cooler than the ambient (air) temp in the spray area. So your 60 degree spray temp may actually be closer to 50 degrees which will affect the crosslink/cure. overspray
two questions. a few people have told me to spray epoxy primer on bare clean metal. why not etch primer? after i shoot 4 coats of filler primer, then block with 220 up to 600 grit (wet or dry?), then shoot a layer of sealer. Before i shoot my single stage color, do i sand the sealer layer? what grits? wet or dry? thanks. Ted www.LeatherByTed.com
Etch primer is an option under most epoxies. It's REALLY important to read the procdure sheets for every product you use. PPG has one self etch that will work under DPLF, and a few that won't. I like PPG 1791/1792 self etch under DPLF Much better bond if you use it according to the p-sheet.
Etching epoxy primer is available That eliminates the need for two different primers. Etching primer contains a small amount of phosphoric acid. But..... a proper treatment of the metal with phosphoric acid prior to priming is much better than what etching primer can do. Etching primer is not useless, but it can't negate the effects of improper or incomplete preparation.
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