History Auto racing 1894-1942

I don't know anything about that. As I understand it two cars were built originally and Duncan's car is a combination of the remaining bits of both of them. Has somebody else also found some pieces?

 

smarjoram I guess you didn't read this thread http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=94880 where a number of skeptics question more than one being built.

 

I have read it - and added to it. I thought you meant someone else was building one now. Duncan has worked very closely with the Fiat company archivist and feels as certain as he can be that there were two cars originally. there were definately two engines as his is stamped no. 2.

It's a very emotive car and the there's a big mystery too which gives lots of scope for discussion and scepticism. I don't want to get drawn into the arguments about it because I don't know enough about it and don't want to add to the confusion. i think Duncan's post puts very clearly his intentions. He's very down to earth - he just wants to drive this wonderful car as it was the day it was made and I just want to be there to see it happen.

 

The 2 engines were built for an airship, it would be nice to see some evidence of a second car before we go rewriting history

 

Mac.................as it is today......

 

150 H.P. Dufaux at the 1905 Herkomer Trial.?? I thought this was only for touring models or am i missing something.

 

I recently acquired this photo of J.D.White who is shown in his T-Head Mercer racing car.
Have any of you heard of him or can you identify the track where the photo was taken?

 

There was a big Dufaux in the Herkomer entry list - described as an 80-100PS - but the regulations for that state a minimum of four seats.

However, the 1905 Herkomer incorporated the Bleichröderrennen, a two-part event made up of races in Forstenrieder Park and a hillclimb on the Kesselberg, all of them part of an Automobilwoche. The Bleichröderrennen regulations specify the usual (for the time) 1000kg, 650kg and 400kg classes and two-man crews but no minimum number of seats. From my reading of the reports in Braunbeck, it would seem that racing cars competed in the Bleichröderrennen alongside the touring cars taking part in the Herkomer.

 

Quite an interesting picture. It looks to be J G White. I seem to have a Joe White rattling around in my head, although I can't put my finger on it.

With the headlights and spare it appears to maybe have some life as a boulevard cruiser. The car also appears to be updated with the bodywork etc to be carrying a T-head. What do you know of the car that identifies it as having a T-head?

Pretty cool. I think there are maybe a couple of stories on these old Mercers that have yet to be told-Jim

 

Jim....The chassis appear to be all standard T-Head Mercer including the belly pan.

Yes..... It could be just a road car but back then so many racing cars were driven to the track. The lights and spare came off in fifteen minutes and they went racing. After the race they went back on for the trip back home.

Maybe J. D. White will ring a bell with someone?

 

brand new to this forum,from Buenos Aires Argentina, may I ask if any of you might have info on the 1914 V12 Packard ex Ralph de Palma that went to Italy and was used by Ascari in 1919 and Baronessa Maria D'Avanzo 1920. Love to see a picture of the car in Italy, is the car still around? Please forgive if this is not properly posted, but it's with you people I wish to correspond.

 

Saacha, the Packard you inquire about no longer exists. Packard built (2) 299 cubic inch 12 aero Liberty motors in 1916. Engine #2 was placed in the 1919 rebodied Packard racer that ran at Indy in 1919, driven by Ralph DePalma. DePalma had some troubles with his mount in the late summer/early autumn of 1919 as it was a bit tired. I believe he took his spare engine (#2) and off loaded it on God only knows whom as there are several potential buyers in late 1919, in Italy. Ralph DePalma had always found some good backers to help defray the high costs of auto racing, but in late 1919 backers were not plentiful and money was a bit tight and he had to pay for his new 3 liter Ballot. The Packard now in Italy was driven in 1920 by Silvani, failing to finish in August at a Hillclimb. In November Eugenio Silvani drove the car at Gallarate in Italy where it won going away. The small 12 had a 157.894 kph average. Ascari drove an 4.5 liter Alfa and Enzo Ferrari drove I believe, a 6.1 liter Alfa and but they were not even the fastest Alfas (Campari was the fastest Alfa running 126.76 kph). A couple of articles have been written that maybe it was this car that was the inspiration for his 12. Enzo wrote about this in his memoirs and in an interview with Griffith Borgeson, referring to the car as the 1914 that ran at Indy, which of course is a mistake. It was a 1916 Packard that ran at Indy in 1919.

Silvani drove the car early in 1921 and then it made its way to the Baroness Maria Avanzo. She drove the car at the Fanoe Islands in Denmark but the car started on fire, so she drove it in the ocean to extinguish the flames and remarked that she would trade the car for a 501 Fiat. Apparently Ascari overheard her and took her up on that. Somewhere I have a pic of her in the 501. Ferrari was working for Ascari at the time so he may have had his second chance with the car and maybe even a chance to slip behind the wheel. There is a book being written about the Baroness and hopefully more history on the Baroness will come out in the not too distant future.

I have had a number of people over the years claim they have found something of the car although I believe it met its total demise. I own the only parts that remain of the 299 OHC Packard racers including engine #1. The prior owner of the #1 engine sent the Baroness an audio of the engine running and she responded that it brought back good memories. She forwarded the two pictures below.

Here are two pics of the Baroness with the car. Placing the carb up on top of the manifold more than likely added to the problems with it staring on fire. Here is a pic of the engine as well.-Jim

 

jimdillon, "smashing" information, can't belive I found the Packard history that quick, nice seeing people like you on a screen, will come up with some of my pictures of historic racing cars soon.

 

Somebody sent me a fascinating image today which he found in a box of documents in the Milwaukee area. I believe it's The Ford Arrow, which later became the record setting 999. Sadly the Arrow crashed in a record attempt, killing the driver Frank Day.

Here's a NY Times article...

 

Without referring to the bookshelf, I think they were Belgian?
This image I've gleaned from the web some time ago and have it labelled a 1904 60hp. This is Robert Dick territory, I suspect... (driver Pancho Villa?)

 

Yes, they were Belgian: I did mention a brief history of Pipe before, but it's only in French -

http://www.rvccb.be/PAGES/CONSTRUCTEURS LISTE/constructeurs PFR.html

The car in the picture is Lucien Hautvast's mount in the 1904 Circuit des Ardennes. Pipe entered three cars, but only two arrived, the other being driven by the 'Red Devil' himself, Camille Jenatzy. Both retired before half distance.

I have no explanation for the rather eccentric headgear though!

 

Smarjoram, that is a great pic and I believe you are correct on your assumptions. Sometime it would be great if we could come up with enough pics of the original 999 and the original Arrow to see what if any differences, such as exhaust manifolds.

Also if it were not for this accident old Henry may not have ever bought back the car. Great pic-Jim

 

Somewere there is a silent movie that used the 999 or Arrow is sone racing seans. The car does crash often wondered is is was this wreck or later shot as part of the movie.

 

Could be Bob but I am not sure they would have removed the right front tire for the movie as it would make it pretty hard to move around. Just a wild guess though-Jim

 

This info comes as a surprise as i have only seen the entry list for touring cars and nothing is mentioned in any books. I have researched the Dufaux family, mainly for the history of Motosacoche, but i am yet to find anything mentioning their racing cars.

I had a feeling the Dufaux picture i posted could be Mr. Rolls from the Brighton Motor Trials but your comments puts an end to those thoughts.

 

Welcome to the H.A.M.B.

When time permits, i have some questions to ask about the Anasagasti automobile.

 

I thought this photo, originally posted in the Photos taken before WWII - history in Black & White thread by MrFire, might compliment the recent discussion about the Cyclone.

 

Dufaux competed in 1904 at Eaux-Mortes, Dourdan and elsewhere. I notice Darren doesn't have the Bleichröderrennen in his book project yet: having looked again, it looks like the Forstenrieder Park event might have been a sprint of some sort. Braunbeck has an entry list of twelve (with race numbers):

1 Werner (Mercedes)
2 F Dufaux (Dufaux) DNS?
3 X (de Dietrich) DNS?
4 X (Fiat) DNS?
5 E Bugatti (Mathis)
6 Hanriot (Clément)
7 Braun (Mercedes)
8 Hieronimus (Mercedes)
9 Mengers (IAC) DNS?
10 Hémery (Opel)
11 Wagner (Opel)
12 Gabriel (de Dietrich) DNS?

Only seven cars are mentioned in the results, the overall win going to Hieronimus from Werner, Wagner, Braun, Hanriot and Bugatti. The seventh name mentioned is Hémery, but he has no times listed, which might indicate that he actually didn't start and some or all the others did! One of the unknown drivers might be EEC Mathis, as he was the entrant of both, in addition to the cars of Bugatti and Gabriel.

 

Have quite a bit of info on the car Kurtis, glad to help you.

 

Original report of the Herkomer, including the Bleichröderrennen:

http://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/anno?apm=0&aid=aaz&datum=19050820&zoom=2

 

This is, yes, a 1915 Lancia Theta, photograph taken in Argentina, the driver is Mariano de la Fuente. This pic turned up last year, and what we found most interesting is that the Michelin publicity on the hood is not Spanish, this rather made us suspect the car was then raced as it came from Europe. The dear Lancia does not exist in Argentina anymore as far as we know.Wonder who raced it and where, on the other side of the world? Hope this "makes the grade" on this forum of very learned enthusiasts. (first go at attach....)

 

This is exactly what i have been looking for. Many thanks for the link. I have quite alot of translating ahead of me before a can fully understand what actually took place. However, i did have a quick glance at the results and they seem to differ somewhat in comparison to Braunbeck's list. Also, i couldn't find any mention of the Dufaux. The report i have looks to be fairly accurate but there is more of a focus on the touring models and motorcycles and not the "professional" racing cars in attendance.

Anywho, i'm off to finish translating the Bosnian Trial report you provided a while back so i can get stuck into this one. Thanks again.

 

The Bleichröderrennen result was computed on the aggregate times - see p27 of the AAZ link.

 

View attachment 1290745

Kurtis this maybe the same car at a different time. Tim Martin posted the photo and here is the post. http://theoldmotor.com/?p=9763

I have read about this car racing in early races in the NYC area a long time ago but do not remember the details.

 

It started raining here after i responded so i kept reading and noticed the times on the pages i didn't glance at earlier. The fancy shmancy German text began to make my eyes water after a while so i went google-ing and found this article...
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=OW19051004.2.147.2