Another Serial Number Lesson Learned

As many may know, I'm an independent insurance appraiser. I do insurance claims for Grundy, Hagerty and a few other companies.

Last week I get an assignment to look at a '72 MG MGB. Initially, the adjuster just sent the last 6 digits of the serial number. I e-mailed him back requesting the complete serial number and I received a 14 digit number starting with '773'. I called the owner and he wanted to meet me at the tow yard to let me know what he thinks it needs .

We met on Thursday and as usual, the very first pictures I take are of the serial number plate (center of the dash) and the build plate (left door lock pillar). The serial number starts out 'GNU' and ends with a 'G' , just like every other MGB of this vintage.

So I ask why I have two different numbers? I get a blank look. Then he asks his wife for the paperwork (registration). The registration is using the '773' number so I'm sure the title is too. I let him know he has a problem. I asked if a state had issued a 'VIN' and he didn't think so. This car is insured for $27,500.

I left a voicemail for the adjuster on the serial number issue. On Friday, I completed an estimate for more than $23K. At more than 85% of the Agreed Value, the car is a constructive total loss. I called the customer and advised him of the same. He advised he got a call regarding the title.

HERE IS THE LESSON TO BE LEARNED: When a car is totaled, the insurance company is buying that car from you. It's no different than a private sale. You need a matching title for the insurance company to complete this transaction. Or, as the ancient Chinese proverb states, 'No ticky, no washy'.

This guy is in a bind. Both he and the car are in FL. The car was titled and registered in WI. I didn't ask where the title was. The car was mashed between two cars and it isn't driveable. He needs to fix the title issue before the insurance company will pay off. Most likely he'll need to have someone from the WI DMV to do a VIN inspection. This car has had a lot of work done, including a 4.2L Range Rover V8 (Buick 215 family) installed.

When you buy a car, MAKE SURE THE TITLE MATCHES THE CAR!!! If you don't have a title when you buy the car, make sure you get the title issues handled before you stick over $25K into the car.

People at the DMV are stupid. We all know that. This isn't true at the insurance companies. Serial numbers/VIN's are the VERY FIRST THING WE LOOK FOR!!! If you have a '32 Ford with an aftermarket frame, a Chevy V8 and a Turbo 350 trans, and you're holding a title that starts with 18-XXXXXXX, I'm going to ask you to show it to me. A guy with an aftermarket frame isn't going to get a pass that someone with an original frame would. And a little plate engraved at the trophy store doesn't count.

We all know why states worry about this stuff. TAXES. Insurance companies don't care about taxes, but they can't sell that lump of salvage they just bought if the numbers don't match. They become just as liable as the owner when title problems crop up. Keep in mind the insurance company isn't denying this man's loss. But this guy has created his own hoops that he now must jump thru to collect his money.

I've seen a lot of comments made to others on this forum of how to get around the DMV. It takes the same amount of effort to do things the wrong way as it does to do things the right way. These shade tree lawyers can't help you if claims are denied, cars are impounded or the DMV tax police come to your door.

I hope this helps...

 

Real good info to have. I almost bought a '57 Ranchero from a guy here in Hawaii who'd bought it from a seller in Arizona. Checking the title against the car, VINs were completely different. Needless to say, I didn't buy the Ranchero, but the current owner said he didn't even check the VIN after the car got here. Hawaii is real strict about titles and this guy is apparently up the creek as the seller, last I knew, had not furnished the correct title. Now the guy here in Hawaii has a car he can't sell. Heed Swifsters word folks.

 

Well written and informative, Swifter. Thanks.

 

A lesson I learned the hard way a long time ago , fortunately I was only out a few hundred bucks and made my money back in parts. After that fiasco I check the title against the VIN, letter by letter and digit by digit. If they are even one off, no deal.

 

Okay, well, this raises an interesting question.

Suppose a guy intends to build himself a car from a combination of new parts and bits and pieces from a donor car or a collection of donor cars. Suppose both the body and frame are new (either aftermarket reproduction parts or hand-built fabrications) but that the major components of the drive train (engine, transmission and rear axle) as well as some of the other running gear (bits and pieces of the suspension and brakes) are from, say, a used passenger vehicle or pickup truck that he owns or plans to buy. Other bits and pieces will come from a variety of sources. Some will be used parts from a junkyard and others will be new parts ordered from catalogs.

So the guy starts to collect the stuff needed to build the car and calls the insurance company for information about how to go about titling it and insuring it -legally- before he gets started so he doesn't complete the project and wind up with something that can't be titled, insured or operated on public roads. What is the insurance company going to tell him? What will they be looking for? What does the builder need to do to make the process as smooth and easy and hassle-free as possible for everybody involved?

 

Nicely put shmooz0... great question.
Great thread.

 

Great question, I can see ways of getting a title to match what is built but naturally there won't be any authentic vin in the usual place.

 

The way I understand it, the insurance co. won't be assigning you a new VIN for a pile of old parts ... that will be left to the DMV to do. Once the car (former pile of parts) has been assigned a VIN (by the DMV) then the insurance co. can cover you.

As for getting a VIN for the pile of parts ... rule number one, you need to get and keep receipts for ALL of the major parts. Engine, trans, rear, body, frame, etc. If you bought an old Model A body off a farmer ... get a receipt ... if you buy a "donor car" for the engine, trans, rear ... keep the receipt for the purchase of that car (and it wouldn't hurt to also photocopy the ownership before you send the remains off to the wreckers ... then get a receipt from the wreckers). If you buy a rear end off a guy at a fleamarket ... get a receipt. If you buy 2x3 tubing to make your own frame ... get a receipt. The state is going to want to know where all the parts came from. As for a glass body, obviously get a receipt and generally the manuf will also supply a "statement of origin". One of the possible problems with building a car from "scratch" is that the state (and this depends on the state) can assign a VIN and title the car as the year it was built not what it looks like ... so you could potentially have a "Model A kit car" that is titled as a 2011 homebuilt/constructed and therefore be required to meet emissions standards for a 2011 vehicle. If the state has a "street rod" titleing provision, you may only be allowed to insure it with "speciallity insurance" meaning the car can only be driven to shows, parades etc ...

Bottom line is this ... it is not the insurance co that assigns titles, once a title has been assigned (by the DMV) you can then get insurance. As for keeping all receipts ... the gov't wants to know where all the parts came from so they can verify that you didn't steal a car to use as a donor for your project.

As swiftster has suggested ... riveting a non-original serial number tag isn't good enough, buying a set of number/letter stamps and banging your own numbers into a frame isn't good enough. If the factory stamped number or the factory riveted original tag is not present, then it will be up to the state to issue a new number if the original number can not be proven.

 

Re the question posed, in many states you get a new VIN assigned by the state for a constructed vehicle.

 

Yes, but this is with the caveat that in order to get the vin assigned, the builder will have already sunk umpteen thousands of dollars into the project in order to have a complete vehicle that the DMV (and in our case the State Troopers) can assign a number to. Right?

Are there steps a builder can take along the way to ensure this will go smoothly?

 

This varies, state by state. Here in Tennessee, I was issued a VIN & title for my car's body, frame, engine, trans, & rearend - before any work was done. I feel better having proper paperwork in hand before spending time & money on the project. In other states, friends have told me that the car had to be ready for highway use before the state police would inspect the vehicle and the associated paperwork (Statement of orgin, receipts, etc). This is where you'll be ahead to contact your local DMV. When I've purchased old cars, which didn't come with paperwork, I snap plenty of photos before I even move the car. This helps to show the inspector that you're not trying to hide anything and helps them to know what this started out as. When they show up to look at something that has already been repaired or even painted, they have to try to verify that you didn't use a body or frame from someone else's stolen car. We've all read the recent threads regarding member's cars being stolen. If the dirtbag thief disassembles the car, rents a sandblaster, then sprays on primmer or paint, it's hard to tell where it came from (especially a reproduction body). Documentation, documentation, documentation! Thus far, I've always been able to get a title for each of my projects. Although, a lot of states have really tightened up how they do things. With all the sea water flooded cars from hurricane Katrina, several states changed their laws in order to try to prevent those cars from being sold to the unsuspecting public. With these changes, it also made it harder to bring the old parts cars back into service. I take photos and ask the sellers to sign a receipt indicating how long they've owned the body, what they know about it's history, as well as specifing any VIN # and the selling price. I've even gone so far as writing them a check and waiting for the check to clear my account before picking up the car so that I have a canceled check to prove my purchase. A conversation with a supervisor in you local DMV office, before purchasing, will be a big help. Most of these people (DMV & state police) appreciate being consulted BEFORE the deal has been made.

The above isn't the only way, but it's always worked for me.

 

As an insurance investigator I have run into bogus VIN's and restamped frame numbers. I always check the two visible VIN's numbers for a match. In some cases I have to dig for the "hidden" VIN to verifiy the correct number.
In Florida DMV may have to inspect a vehicle pior to issuing a title. (this is not a safety inspection) I got around this by having my VIN and odometer verified by a registered used car dealer.

 

Specifically as an insurance adjuster how do those of us who build our own frames handle the vin issue?

Exampe. Model A coupe purchased with original title and registered with DMV. Car is then built using a home built chassis that resembles a 32 ford. There are no numbers on the frame so if there is a claim how do you view this?

I am not looking for registeration answers but how the insurance companies view / handle this type of issue.

 

I'm curious as well. Just to play devil's advocate, say I have an expensively built panel truck on an S10 frame. The serial number of the S10 is used, after the DMV looks it over. Get in an accident, and the panel is smashed up pretty good. Are they going to base the price off of an S10?

 

I am a little confused. What state is TORONTO in? You should know that almost every state has different laws about this subject and you can not generalize as you are suggesting.

 

Good stuff,.. Informative thread, Thanks for posting it.

 

im very intrested my self as i just got a model a cowl to make a r.p.u. with.

 

MGBs and many other old British cars had a VIN number on the ID plate, a body unit number stamped into the metal, and engine number stamped into a metal plate rivited to the engine block. I have seen cases where a car was titled using the body unit number or engine number. Possibly that's what happened in this case?

 

He may be from Toronto, but his info is pretty good. At least as far as the way Pa.things. I'm hoping Swiftster comes back and has some answers. This is a delicate and important discussion.

 

I assume being as they won't pay out anything because of this serial #, the insurance co. will refund all premiums they have collected??

 

Don't count on it. The reason for not paying has to do with incorrect numbers and they will consider that Fraud

 

relating back to the original post ~ Many years ago a guy I met was selling parts from an old hot rod. It had been wrecked and he was parting it out. I asked if he had bought it back from the insurance co as it had obviously been totaled. He said no they denied coverage after the wreck due to conflicting VIN numbers.
Form what I remember, (this was 1975 so give me a break), He either had built a frame or got one from another car. This was on a car that had already been registered in his name for a long time. When it was totaled, the insurance co checked the VIN and it didn't match, so they denied. They then sued him for insurance fraud as they felt he was trying to pass of a different car then the one he had insured. He produced enough witnesses (guy that knew the car) to get them to drop the suit, but was denied coverage as in the eyes of the law, it was not the car that was insured!
Something to think about when you play games with your registration and VIN numbers.

 

This is a semi-unrelated question about titles. I have a off-topic muscle car that has a salvage title. I believe the car was someone's parts car, and someone else pulled it from a yard and rebuilt it.

Is it true that salvage titles effect resale value? If it does, is there a way to legitimately, legally get a plain title for it? Or is it with the car forever?

 

I think that's the whole point of a salvage title...to let anyone who might buy the car know that it was salvaged at one time. I hope there's no way to change it back.

 

WOW! A lot of questions in a short period of time. I understand how the 'multiquote' stuff works, but I think this stuff is important enough to do one by one to avoid confusion. As I was lazy and just got up (11:30AM ), I need some breakfast first...

 

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There are ways to "Clean" a salvage title. Depends on the state. Some states don't have salvage titles, so people will re register in those states and then bring it back to their state ~ Not necessarily illegal, but unethical. Might be considered fraud though if it were found out.
In California you can get a salvage removed if you can prove it was done for reasons that don't affect the integrity (like theft). It is very tough to do.
To answer the question about value, it usually lowers the value and most loan companies will not finance a salvage vehicle and many insurance companies won't touch them or will offer only liability if anything.

 

From the CA DMV:
How To Reregister a Salvaged Vehicle


http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures/howto/htvr13.htm

 

OK, now that I have a cinnamon bun (or two) and a beverage let's discuss breifly the roll of the insurance company and the DMV.

The insurance company does not title vehicles. A sales agent from Allstate or State Farm may be able to check a serial number (from here on to be know as a VIN) on a newer car, but they typically are not car guys. They'll ask for a copy of the registration or ask you for the number. I've been driving since 1980 and I have yet to see an agent actually check the VIN.

They are more concerned that the car you are insuring is yours. They look at titles and registrations, or if you've been working with the same agent for years, they may just take your word for it. What THEY are interested in is insurable interest. Are you the person who should receive the claim check if the check needs to be issued. This is why you can't insure your neighbors car. You have no insurable interest.

As mentioned before, the people at the DMV are generally stupid. They are not car/truck people, they are bureaucrats. They are there to collect taxes on your vehicle. License plate fees are taxes. Title fees are taxes. Sales tax for your automotive purchase is a tax. This is who and what they are. They have rules they have to follow, even if they don't understand those rules. You need to know those rules better than the DMV dork at the desk.

As some of the forum attorneys like to point out, true VIN's did not come into play on a world wide basis until 1969. A standardized VIN did not come into play in the US until 1981. Think about that. That's 29 years! For someone to have the memory of the older style numbers, they probably be 60. Even the VIN police at your State Police post doesn't really remember these unless he's a car guy.

Keeping this in mind, they will check the internet to see where the VIN is suppose to be located. If it's not where it's supposed to be, you have now taken them out of their comfort zone. Remember, 'fail' is a four letter word.

You have to make this as painless an operation as possible so that you get thru this process as painless as possible. As an example, when I titled my Studebaker after buying it in California (this was MI), I had a clear color picture of the VIN plate, a copy of the factory build sheet and a book showing how the numbers where set up. Why? The title showed a VIN of 64-I5003. Notice the 'I'? This is how Studebaker stamped a '1' on their plates. Having all the information above, I spent a total of 5 minutes at the Secretary Of States office and my title was correct without needing a VIN inspection.

Have your ducks in a row. Be prepared. Do your homework. If you are looking at having to have the state issue a VIN on the car, be ready. Have a build book. Have your receipts (on a CD will work). If there is a need to pull a VIN plate from the car while being worked on, have a friend with the local police, sheriff, or state police post. This shouldn't be a big deal. But it really smooths things doing this via a 'friend'. Get a bitchy neighbor making noise complaints followed by a nosy cop, and that pulled VIN can be considered fraud.

Last but not least, there is nothing on a car that ISN'T considered a service part. Ford sold frames for repairing your Model T, Model A and Model B and still does to this day. I would also bet that if that '33 Ford had the frame replaced in 1934 from a car accident, no one bothered restamping the VIN. And VIN's are not always stamped on the frame from the factory. 'Hidden' VIN's didn't start until the last 1950's to the mid 1960's. On my Studebaker (1964), the frame is stamped on the rear crossmember. After 47 years, it's barely visible. These frames also rust and on many cars, they have been replaced.

The practice of replacing frames still goes on now. And in many cases, they are used frames. New trucks are expensive. If an insurance company can buy a used frame for an F150 for $400 instead of $2500 for a new one, well, how many 'frame' numbers match the dash number? Probably 99.9%, but there is still that .1% that don't.

Some cars are unibody construction (Mopars, AMC's, etc). Many are 'clipped' You think the number stamped into the back of the car with match the number stamped to the from. Again, 99.9% of the time they do, but not always.

On to the questions...

 

EVERY state has a way of getting around this. But it's a lot of jumping thru hoops and can involve making the vehicle driveable first for a VIN check. Remember, in most cases, you still need a title to scrap a car. You may have to check with the State Police to make sure the vehicle isn't stolen, and depending on the state, checking with the Feds to also verify that.

Again, he created his own headache because he couldn't bother to check the title and match it to the truck. The guy he bought the car from probably didn't have a title, but found another that didn't match. A lot of people do this, and I see many guys on this board suggesting the same. They can do that when it's not their car or truck. These are probably also the guys running with just straight liability.