Another Serial Number Lesson Learned

Where can i get one ?

 

The insurance company will tell him they'd love to insure his car. Get a title and call us. They don't title cars.

As for the state, this is a classic for getting an assigned title. Some states will consider this a 2011 Assembled, and others will still title is as a '32 Ford if that's what the car looks like. What it shouldn't be titled as is a real 1932 Ford. It's not and this is how you get your tit in the wringer.

If you buy a new frame from TCI and a body from Brookville, along with the receipt, they should also have a certificate of origin. It just says, 'Hey! This our body (frame) and we're damn proud of it!'

What's the bad part of this? Every state wants to collect sales taxes on stuff purchased from out of state. It doesn't matter if you buy a book from Amazon or that $10K roadster body, the state wants their sales tax. The Supreme Court ruled that out of state vendors do not have the responsibility to collect sales tax. Does Boyd Coddington ring a bell?
So you have your receipts for that frame and body and say they are $15K for both. You already paid $1100 for having it shipped. Neither TCI or Brookville charged you sales tax. You go to get the title done at the DMV and they are telling you that you owe (and I'm using FL at 7%/6%) $950 in sales tax .

And this is the real reason people try to get around having the state assign a VIN. No one thinks anything about paying sales tax for that new F150 to chase parts with, but the hot rod that they need the states help with, they'd rather go to jail and pay all kinds of outrangous fines instead.

 

Yes, keep all your paperwork. Another old proverb is that no job is finished until the paperwork is done. Remember this while reading HRJ in the bathroom.

As mentioned, sellers of bodies and frames will also send a certificate of origin. This should allow you to insure your project with the insurance company until a VIN is assigned.

 

THIS! Also keep in mind all states are different and your mileage may vary.

 

We all get this stuff. On cars with cowl tags, door tags, etc, there is usually away to see if something is koser. I had a '70 Nova I was looking at with the VIN painted over to make the number unreadable (it wasn't removed). The VIN on the assignment was for a V8 car. The untampered cowl tag said the car was originally a 6 cylinder. A couple days later, the owner gets visited by the SIU (Special Investigations Unit) of Hagerty.

If a car is new construction, a car dealer can do nothing for you. And actually, any car brought into FL has to go thru this. My 2001 Ford Ranger had to have this done to transfer the title from MI to FL. Florida has a 'new wheels' tax of $100 for every car being issued a FL title for the first time. This is the reason I haven't transfered my Studebaker title yet (still a MI title). If I move out of state, I will have wasted $100.

 

In the end, it's up to the handling adjuster. But as the appraiser, I put a large note that advises there are no VIN on the vehicle. Like the MG, they may suggest you handle the VIN before they pay off on a claim.

They may look the other way if this is a $5K car. But let's face it, how many $5K '32 Fords are there. Even 4-door sedans go for far north or that. The insurance company doesn't want to deny a claim, but they need to protect themselves when/if THEY sell the car (salvage).

This again is something that technically would get an assigned VIN in most states. But before even starting work on that car, I would have a long talk with the DMV. If you bought a Model A, your VIN is for a Model A regardless of the body. Ford numbers are set up by year. The number on that title tells you what year car you have, and a Brookville body won't change the number on the frame or the title.

If you want a '32, buy a '32. If you are going to build a '32 and make your own rails, what part was built by Henry? Why would the DMV change the description to a '32 why the title clearly says otherwise?

If you are making your own frame and buying a roadster body, just get a state issued VIN. Again, most states will make an assembled vehicle a '32 Ford if that's what the car looks like. Others will not. But if I was interested in buying your car, and your title says '29 Model A, regardless of the body sitting on the frame, I'd walk away. I'd figure there is something bad that's going on and I'd pay the penalty.

 

This is an age old problem in the USA as well as in Canada, I too am an appraiser for the Antique and collector industry. In Canada this is one of reasons the insurance companies insist on an appraisal from a qualified and recogized appraiser, they then know what they are insuring with the complete description and photos of the vehicle including a valid ownership (title) and V.I.N. verification, that being said the VIN plate does not have to be original but must match the description of the car and ownership.

I know that some companies in the USA do not require an appraisal, but who decides on the value of the car to replace it in a total loss?? This is why if you have a vehicle of any value, present the insurance company with an appraisal and this should eliminate any problems collecting the full amount on a total loss.

 

RANT: S10's are the devils spaun. I wish they'd crush the remaining s10's so that no other vehicle will be worse by these conversions. This is strictly my opinion.

RANT OFF: Let's say you have a 1961 Chevy Suburban. The VIN plate is attached to the door frame. What would this have to do with the S-10 or the frame? It would still be a 1961 C10 Suburban. It should still be titled as a '61 C10 Suburban as the VIN would still be on the door frame.

Again, a frame is nothing more than a service part. This may be the wrong service part, but it's still a service part. And if the Suburban VIN is missing, you have a problem. You may have a title for an S10 and the VIN off the dash, but assigning your own VIN is illegal.

There are places that can stamp a VIN plate for you (with cooperation from your local law enforcement) provided SOME number is there. If you have no title for that '61 Suburban and the original VIN is missing, you now get to jump thru the hoops set up by the DMV to get a state issued VIN.

If I was looking at that Suburban and saw a title that said it was a '97 S10, I'd run, not walk, away from your truck. From the insurance companies perspective, they will want you to fix your title (and VIN plate) before paying off on a total loss.

 

Could be a valid possibilty. But the problem is that there is a 4.2L V8 from a 1994 Range Rover Land Rover. The original engine is looooong gooooone! (with apologizes to Ernie Harwell)

 

Thanks, I'm not a fan of the S10 frame thing either. But here's a conundrum that comes up on FTE often.... A '48-52 ford truck has the serial number stamped on the frame, a rivet tag on the firewall, and glovebox. The frame is the number that the DMV goes by, since the cab was a replacement part. However, if the front frame section was clipped with a Volare, then the serial number on the frame is gone, and a whole lot of explaining is needed. I haven't personally had this problem, but others claim they have.

As to the S10, I only used that as an example, as I'm looking to build my own frame for my KB2, and I think that was answered in another post. Again, thanks.

 

Nope. They are not denying this man's claim. They will pay the claim. BUT, he needs to get his paperwork in order. This is not the insurance companies responsibility. So it may cost him time, it may cost him some money at his DMV and the payoff will be a check for $27,500. I certainly would do what I needed to do for $27,500.

As for the premium refund, you have to remember, he supplied the VIN number. And after doing so, he drove the vehicle with a proof of insurance for that vehicle for the past three years. Can you put the cat back in the bag?

 

What this really gets into is insurable interest. He couldn't prove ownership. One thing that was far more of a problem than now is auto theft. Different companies will attack this problem in different ways. Some can be extremely agressive. Some states also have a looser definition of fraud. Some will only prosecute if the insured is insisting on a payoff. I've seen this more in regards to homeowner's arson losses.

 

As in a lot of these topics, it will depend on the state, it will depend on the insurance company and it will depend on the car.

Most states will not use salvage titles on vehicles over 20 years of age. That's not to say a car may not have lived it's life with that type of title.

On vintage cars, the only thing I can see an insurance company tagging a title with a salvage definition on a vintage car is due to flood or fire, or some other issue that would compromise the integrity of the car. Some may even get scrap titles.

Many states will allow a salvage designation to be removed if the vehicle is rebuilt and reinspected by the state, either as a safety inspection or with a state police inspection. And then there are others like MO that will never pull that designation.

As for effecting the value of the car, it can. Unless you know what happened to that car, would you pay the same for the same car with a clear title? Unless we're dealing with a car with simple construction like a '32 Ford, I wouldn't.

I have dealt with this on late model cars ('98 Camaro, '94 Cadillac, etc., and yes, it killed the value by 50%. Very rarely will a late model car ever by worth fixing or purchasing. But as the old saying goes, there are suckers born every minute. These are usually purchased at auctions by people who don't understand why a salvage title was issued or what it means.

Now, I did try to buy a '73 Triumph TR6 from Grundy that was stolen and dumped in the Gulf of Mexico. And after being recovered, it sat out in the sun for two weeks before I got the assignment. The salt water bath had started doing it's stuff. I offered $200. The said it had to go thru the auction. By the time that car sold, it was junk.

Obviously it needed to be completely torn down and rebuilt. But when done it would have been just as nice as any other TR6. I believe with an inspection, Florida will 'clean' the title and issue it as clear. And not all states will do this.

 

Not all cars are train wrecks. If you can show ALL damages were repaired and the car is nice, why not? What may have been finacially compromising, may not be now.

Say I had a '63 Volkswagen Beetle and at the time, the cars was worth $3500. The car now has a salvage title because the adjuster wrote an estimate for $4200. So I buy the salvage for $100 at auction. If I completely rebuild this car, make a little hot rod out of it (and I've seen a couple of these insured for $35K) and all those listed repairs were completed, why shouldn't I be able to get a clear title for it?

 

Generally speaking, if the owner isn't way out of the ballpark on a figure, they will let him insure it for what he wants. This is the basis of an Agreed Value. If the underwriters see something out of line ($75K for a stock Falcon), they'll ask the owner to prove the basis of his figure (an appraisal).

As an appraiser, I also note if a car is over or under insured. I've seen a 1968 427 Corvette roadster insured for $16K, a '32 Ford Roadster insured for $10K, etc. I also look to advise if a vehicle is over insured.

 

I think this is what swifster is specifically referring to. I never did understand how people could think that they could remove the original VIN and not deal with the State to do it the correct way and not have some sort of problem in the future.

 

On those Ford trucks the number is also stamped on the engine. Of course if they've put a Volare (Camaro, S-10 frame) clip, the engine is mostly missing too. Ford pops these numbers in 4 places and bureaucrats look at one only . But this is also why long discussions with the DMV is needed before the work begins.

I'll get into possible solutions to this in a minute or two...

 

True, the number is also on the hogshead. And Ford's after 1965 (?) have the partial vin on the backside of the engine. Hopefully this will benefit the FTE members for future reference, many thanks.

 

SERIAL NUMBERS ON FRAMES

First, all states have different rules. DMV people are stupid. Serial numbers, especially on Fords, are stamped on service parts. None of my possible suggestions are being certified as legal. You need to see what your state will accept and have a long discussion with your DMV and with a state inspector.

1) If you own a Ford and have the paperwork to go with it, and the car/truck has it's original frame. Take pictures. Lots and lots of pictures. When you have the body removed from the frame, you now have decisions to make. Either box the original frame the old fashioned, traditional way, OR replace the frame with an aftermarket service part. Maybe something from TCI. Obviously if you box the frame, the VIN is still there.

If you want an aftermarket frame, my suggestion is to grab the welder and cut out the three numbers stamped on it (for an A or B). Yes, this probably means you can't sell the frame. Then you weld the number into or on top of the frame. If you do this, you local police will probably need to be involved during the cutting out and transfer. On a older Ford, I'd make sure those numbers are in a place that can be seen and not under the cowl like the original. These could also probably be welded to the side of the new frame as well.

This will need to be documented, and you need to keep photos of all of this going on. Removing a VIN under supervision is not illegal. You'll need the title and the frame with a legible number. I would remove all the rust before calling someone out. Have your grinder close by to finish your edges, and if you've already talked with someone about this and want to flush fit the number, have your whole cut to fit it.

I can not say this enough. Thoroughly explain what you are doing. Explain why the cop needs to be there. Some are car guys and will leap at the chance to be there.

2) If you do not have a title, but you have a frame with a serial number, you still have a lot of explaning to do. You may find that you'll get your title issued as this is basically a VIN inspection. You can find serial number breaks on the internet. Show them what that VIN means as far as the age of the car. Don't show them a '28 frame and ask them to make your car a '32.

If you can not convince them to inspect your vehicle without a title, you have to make some personal decisions. No matter how you do this, you need to keep posession of your frame until you have a title. You can cut out and weld the VIN as mentioned, or you can keep the original and stamp your frame. You never get rid of that frame until there are license plates on the back of your car.

3) If all you have is a paper title, do yourself a favor and get a state issued VIN. Everyone knows there are more '32 roadsters on the road now than Henry ever produced. A state issued VIN is not a stigma anymore. If you are not happy with the way that little foil strip looks like, then maybe get a stamped plate on screw it over the top of the foil (use the same number). Do not remove that state tag.

I'm open for opinions on this. No one wants an issue with the DMV, the police or the insurance company.

 

thank you

 

I recently bought a complete, running, titled Model A with current registration. I live in California, as did the seller. I paid a little more for the car to get one that was currently registered, to avoid problems. The VIN number on the registration matched the number on the Model A engine. There is no number on the frame. I then proceded to make a hot rod. Out came the old 4 banger, and in went a flathead V8. I now have a Model A with no matching numbers anywhere. Should I be worried?

 

Well, when the adjuster/appraiser comes out to check your serial number and you can't provide one (and I'm assuming it has a newer frame), how can you prove that's the same car as listed on the title. Think about that....OK, now you tell me how worried you are...

There were numbers stamped on the original frame...in three places.

 

Swifster, first thanks for taking the time to explain all of the intricacies of the insurance company's POV. I have a couple of questions related to this topic and specifically to the quoted post above.

1) Say someone bought a Model A body that was purchased with a Model A title and at the time it came with the Model A frame. The frame had the corresponding VIN that matched the title. All is good right? The body and frame were titled in the new owner's name and all that went smoothly. Now said owner has a Model A title and later the car was registered accordingly. Now for the change up, the owner did not like the appearance of the Model A frame so an aftermarket '32 frame was purchased and installed under the Model A body. Now there is no VIN/serial number on the car and the original Model A frame is laying against a wall. That original frame has not been sold and no one else is using that serial number sequence in the state. In this instance, would you recommend the cut and weld procedure you outline above or something else? If you recommend something else would you state as to why? I should also mention that like most hot rods, the drivetrain is not Model A specific either but from a sixties era.

2) If the numbers were NOT transferred from the Model A frame to the deuce frame and if there were no other identifying numbers on the assembled car, what would happen if there was an insurance claim made for this vehicle? I think I know your answer but I want to make sure and I want the owner to read this.

Thank you for all you help Swifster. I think this particular scenario applies to a great many HAMBers as I see a whole lotta deuce frames under Model A bodies but my story relates to a specific instance.

 

This is for the 'T' guys. Ford only stamped the engine block until 1925. 1926 and 1927 were stamped on the engine and the frame. Unless you have the original engine and title, the numbers will never match if the car is a 1925 or older. Even when restoring a car, the engine will dictate the VIN.

If making a T-bucket, you are going to get a state issued VIN. Unless you plan on keeping the engine on a stand as the center piece of your garage, it'll be hard convincing someone that the SBC was the engine on the title. And even if you stamped the T engine number on the SBC, unless you keep the engine, someone else could end up with that VIN. It's like pulling the frame out from under a '32 and selling the rolling chassis. You just sold the serial number (and title) to the car.

 

Interesting read, good info.
As far as the Suburban body on a S-10 chassis goes from what I understand here in NM it would have to be titled as a S-10. NM (right or wrong) recognizes the frame VIN as the official VIN regardless of what body is bolted to it. That also means it would have to meet the emissions standards of the year of S-10 with the required equiptment (cats, ect). Any vehical with an custom or aftermarket frame needs to have an state assigned VIN, luckly here they base the emmisions on the year it represents so your really better off with an assigned vin then that S-10 vin!

We also have a law on the books saying you can remove and replace a VIN in the process of a restoration as long as you fill out the proper form at the DMV beforehand and have the VIN inspected before and after. Technically this means you could restamp your original Model A's frame number into your new TCI frame and it would be ligit. You would have to have the original frame titled to you first and destroy it afterwards. The problem is we have the law on the books but the DMV has never made the forms you need so it does us no good.
With NM laws, I always build my cars with a factory frame rails at least, as long as the factory vin is in it I have yet to have a problem getting a title issued with that number and year of manufacture, regardless if it came with a title or not. Of course I've been lucky as far as every VIN I've applied for a title on has been clear and not in the system somewhere but then most old cars without titles have been out of the system long enough not to show up. What is it, 7 years for most states and unregestered cars get dropped out of the system?

 

The car sitting on the A frame is fine. No problems. Currently the owner has a title for a frame. The license plate is registered to a frame laying against the wall.

If there is a claim on the car, the insurance company has every right to ask the owner to prove his loss. Any cop also has evry right to take his plates and impound the car. He has no paperwork that currently matches his title to that car.

 

My local title office told me that if I didn't have a stock 56 Ford Pickup frame under my 56 Ford pickup, then I'd have to title it as a Special Construction vehicle for the year I filed the paperwork for.
I really want it registered as a 56, so unless I do something sneeky and underhanded (see post one for the results) it gets the original frame and not the Dakota I have about ready to start dropping the body on.
Larry T

 

As mentioned, each state is different and your mileage may vary.

Let's discuss late model frames. You will not have a complete VIN stamped on a frame. You may have the last 6 digits stamped into it as it goes down the line. I doubt if an insurance company has to switch frames on a late model pick up that the title numbers will be changed. I could be wrong, but until someone shows my this would be the case in any state using a salvage frame on say a 2007 Silverado with a 2008 frame. Would you now call this a 2008 Silverado?

A frame is a service part. No more, no less. They put VIN stickers on the inside of the door (fender, hood, deck lid, tail gate,etc) of late model vehicles. Changing a frame is no different than changing a door.

So if GM didn't stamp the frame for the Suburban in '61 and that mythical '97 S-10 has six digits stamped in it (maybe a part number), the State of New Mexico will make you change the number on the title? GM's VIN on that vehicle is rivited to the door frame. There are no other numbers.

 

Again, every state is different. In this case, I'd do sneaky and underhanded, but I think you are better off with the Ford frame anyways. If you're married to the idea of the Dodge frame, I'd get it running under it's own power and get it titled. That is simply my personal opinion so take it for what it's worth.

Again, my personal opinion, the frame is no different a part than a door, a fender or the cab. The only serial number I'm aware of is on the rating plate. I'm not aware of any complete VIN's stamped the the frame of a Dodge. I guess you could tell me if you see one.

Again, the states want to retitle these for emission and tax purposes. What makes a '56 Ford a '56 Ford? It's not the frame.

 

Please keep in mind that my thoughts on frames are my personal opinion and hold no weight at any DMV (even FL). Use your best judgement.