Another Serial Number Lesson Learned

I am not an insurance guy but if you have a '42-'46 truck it is not going to have a vin tag. There may be a number on the chassis but it is more than lilely that the vehicle was originally registered off the engine number.

Perhpas swifster can give you better information as to where to look for your numbers.

 

Dean,
here is a link swifter sent me to help me with what I thought were 2 1946 chevy trucks.
http://www.brads41-46chevys.com/id14.html
Turns out one is a 46. It will tell you the most of what you need to know, however if the tag on the cowl is missing, you might have to go by the engine serial. They do make repro cowl tags but you have to take it somewhere to get the numbers stamped. I will post a pic that shows where my 46's is located. you can see it just above the fender.

 

Yep! But if they are like most states, the CA VIN tag is probably aluminum that's more or less a sticker. If you repaint the body you can paint over it or ask if they can reissue it (I love to be in on that conversation). If the car is stock, with a stock frame, I can only figure that they couldn't see the frame numbers and wouldn't use the engine or bellhousing numbers.

 

I agree about buying a Ford frame. But who's fault is that. While I'm not in a position to make the decision for a given state, I would think they would look at the aftermarket frame and the original frame and side with the original frame.

As for newer Fords with the build plate on the door, that is not the VIN. The VIN is usually stamped on the car and that plate on the door is like a GM Cowl Tag or a Mopar fender tag. Those plates are sold thru numerous venders so they can be replaced. The problem in having these made is either having the original or something similar to a Marti report so that the tag can be 'rebuilt'.

 

On the mid fifties Ford pickups, the tag is on the A pillar and it is held on by sheetmetal screws from the factory. It might be a partial reason for the frame ID numbers being used. There are also stamped in ID numbers, but I don't really know where all they are found. I know I've found ID numbers stamped into the front fenders.
Larry T

 

Sorry, I thought the plate was still on the truck. If the plate is missing, you'll probably need a state issued VIN. BUT, you can try going thru a VIN verification to have a new plate reissued. More likely than not, you'll need to have the state police sign off on this. They may agree the paperwork matches the truck if the original engine is still in the truck (it will show it's a '46 as well). That is no guarantee.

I did this once back in the 1980's with a '69 Plymouth Valiant. The little twit I bought the car from ripped off the fender tag and the VIN. The saving grace was that Chrysler by that time stamped the last six numbers of the VIN on the radiator support. The bad part? Chrysler couldn't make a tag for the car, and there were none of the vendors who can do that like now.

You need to know your truck. You need to find out if GM stamped the frame or used that number any place else. The burdon of proof is on you to make a case for what you have. Waving a title is not enough.

 

My current, and nearly completed project is a Brookville '31 Ford roadster on a P&J '32 frame that they market thru Brookville already pinched and flattened on top for use under a Model "A". I bought it partially completed from the original purchaser He had bought it as a rolling chassis with P&J straight axle front end and a 9" Foird rear axle. Used the 350 sbc I removed from a badly rusted out 4X4 GMc that I had driven for years till it got so rusty the doors only functioned on level ground! The OP had unstalled a '72 Mustang Tremec, McCloud bell housing setup, and a mockup sbc.
Georgia didn't start titling cars till '61, so that was no problem. After working on the car for a year(off & on) I decided to get under consruction insurance as my parts and pieces tab was getting pretty high.
Hagerty said I had to get a serial number first, so I stopped in the tag office. The first clerk kept asking if it was a "kit car" Knowing what happened to a friend a few years earlier on this, I repeatedly told her, "It's not a kit, it's an assembly of new, reproduction, and used parts" , which was true!
Finally I got a clerk who wasn't stupid and she got out a form for me that I had to get law enforcement to use to certify that the car had no stolen parts. After completing this form, back to tag office, who did their stuff and then mailed to state, who in turn sent me an assigned serial # tag to affix to left "A" post. Then had to get another cop out to the shop to certify the tag was "professionally installed". Then I turned in that form to tag office, contacted Hagerty again and got $35,000 in under construction insurance against fire, theft, and even if a tree falls on my shop and destroys or damages the car.
When I get ready to buy a tag and drive it, (soon, I hope), all I gotta do is call Hagerty and change to a full coverage with liability, collision and comprehensive, take that paperwork to tag office and buy my tag.
Besides the simplification of no title needed, GA, at least for now, doesn't collect sales tax on transactions between private, nondealer individuals, or from purchases from out of state.
All in all, not a bad deal!
Dave

 

This is the right way of handling this. If all DMV employees were so knowledgeable and helpful.

Some states are in more need of that tax money. Normally if you have state income tax, the state will have a place on their form for you to include out of state, internet purchases. Not that anyone usually fills it out.

 

Lots of great info! Thanks

 

Swifster, the knowledge and helpfull attitude comes from the fact that the tax collector/tag office commissioner is an elected position and the boss make's sure that ALL employees do ALL they can to serve the people on the customer side of the counter. There's nothing worse for attitude than govt. beaurocrats with a job thay know is theirs forever if they just show up and don't make waves! These people serve at the pleasure of their boss, who is elected!
Dave

 

Michigan's Secretary of State (the DMV) is an elected position. They don't have the same philosophy that Georgia has. As far as I know, in Florida it's an appointed position. The Florida folks have been far better so far.

 

Swifster, A quick question out of curiosity. I'm in SoCal and was at a friend's garage this morning. He has a '58 Chevy (customer's, not his) in for some work. As I was walking in I noticed the '58 has '56 plates on it. Obviously the car didn't come with them so how did he pull something like that off? I'm working on the assumption all is legal and above board.

Fascinating thread BTW. Its good to hear from someone who knows what they are talking about.

 

This is the information that I have gathered over the years on Model A serial numbers (now used as VIN's). Stamped only in one place and it was matched the engine number, which was stamped when the engine was built (not as it was going down the assembly line, sometimes the engine sat for months before being installed in a car.) I have owned Three Model A's and all of them only had one number in the frame. Sometimes you will find one with no number as the guy on the assembly line got behind and just skipped one. This is very rare for Model A's, but common on T's,



Ford also stamped numbers in the body itself, but this was just an assembly number indicating what plant is was made at and the body style. These are stamped in the horizontal floor front body crossmember and the body side rails. Some Fordoors and Cabriolets had them in the Wooden body cross member as well. Briggs and Murray did a tag that could be on the firewall or the body crossmember. Again these are not serial numbers but only body ID tags as to where they were built and what type.

 

California didn't change plates from 1956 until 1963. They put a sticker with the 56 plate to indicate the vehicle year, so the 58 would have a 56 plate with a 58 sticker. Prior to 57 the year indicator was a metal tag, but they changed to the sticker in 57. To put Y O M Plates on the 58 he would just need clear 56 plates with the proper 58 sticker.
For example here is a 56 plate with the 62 sticker (picture from oldpl8s.com)

 

ok what do I need to do my old olds is titled as a 1948 olds the frame is a 28 ford A the body front half is a T and the rear of the body is a 1918 olds. the title is 63 years old and still in rays name ray has passed at 96 yrs old he used the olds flathead motor for the title. I think I might be goat f--k-d. Lol no loss he gave me the car but one day I would like to put it back on the road.

 

Thanks Hotroddon. They say ignorance is bliss. If thats true I must be the most blissful person on earth!

 

So Swifter, six years ago I purchased a 32 Ford project from a guy in Missouri. Had a valid Missouri title, and the frame has a brass plate (looked to be hand stamped with matching VIN) riveted to inside frame rail. That same VIN is hand stamped on the inside of the other frame rail. The VIN is not an original Ford number, most likely state issued.

When I went to the New York DMV I gave them the Missouri title, a pencil tracing of the stamped VIN, and my sales tax money and they issued me a NY registration and I was good to go.......all legal.

Are you saying now that if I were to try and sell the car, or God forbid if something happened to it where I needed to file a claim with Grundy I would have an issue because the stamped VIN on my car is not a factory stamping, or an official state issued plate or sticker"?

If this is the case how would I go about getting an official state issued Vin Plate?

 

In Ontario they would not issue the above plate because it conveys a obscene message. LOL. Assholes.

 

From what i can tell here in colorado, i have to invest enough to get the car "roadworthy" to be able to bond for a title. If i do otherwise i'm stuck with a salvage title and that will just be used against me if i ever try to sell it.

 

"......... All I can tell you is that the police crime lab can find serial numbers on fire arms where the serial numbers were ground off. ...."

Yup, using acid. Grinding off is the wrong way to do it.

Swiftster, thanks for your time and information. Great to read a straightforward knowledgable thread on serial numbers.

 

They found the numbers for a friend of mine by using a small portable X Ray type machine - Very Buck Rogers

 

The California plates in 1958 used the '56 base plate and a sticker for '58. It should have the sticker. It's possible the guy had the plate restored and hasn't found a new sticker yet (they're out there).

 

The state recognizes that number. That probably was a state issued number. Every thing in context. If I'm looking at that plate and the plate looks older than I am, I'd make a note and let it go. If you have the body off of the frame and you see Ford numbers, then I might see about changing it. If you're happy with the way the car is, do nothing. On a 70+ year old car, I won't say everything is absolute. It's like your insurance policy. Things are in black, white and gray. This sounds like gray.

 

A word about the color gray. As mention a few times before, most DMV personel are stupid. They only see things in black and white. In the insurance side, we add the color gray. Most of us weren't around in the early '30's when some of these cars were built. Most insurance companies understand gray. The MO title and brass plates on the '32 Ford is an example of this. Could it be a state issued VIN. Sure. And if it was long enough ago, the state of MO would have no idea how they tagged cars from 30 years ago, let alone 50 years ago.

 

What is rough here in California, and I am sure in other states too, is that black and white at the DMV varies from window-to-window and branch-to-branch. Bring in a CHP VIN inspector, and you get another exponent added to the possible combinations of black and white. All of these officials are 100% correct, even if they are all different in their response.

As has been said before, you all need to learn the laws of you particular state or province, inside and out, and better than anybody else inside the system.

Even with all of that, you still might be surprised to find folks inside the system doing their own thing.

In my experience, it is best to follow all of the laws and regulations to the letter, have every potential permutation of paperwork filled out, in advance, and keep a positive and complimentary attitude. Don't give any information not asked for, and never, EVER argue with anyone at the DMV, and especially not with a police officer.

If you have access to an agency that can take care of any of the process for you, such as VIN verification, or even including the whole registration process, use them, and avoid the entrenched bureaucratic system all together.

 

There is a lady lawyer who has bilboard ads asking, "Ever argue with a woman?". That's my explanation of arguing with the DMV (sorry ladies!). everyone gives a different answer, yet they are always right. As far as the DMV is concerned, I'd look around the edges to find someone who actually knows what they are talking about. The same is true with 'inspectors'. Some just know it all, though they've never seen a '37 Studebaker before in their lives (example).

Laws of long ago confuse those trying to enforce the laws of today.

 

Seems the insurance companies don't ask many questions until Its there turn to pay.

 

Oh man, oh man, oh MAN! Am I glad I put the effort into the one month long fiasco that I endured to get my '54 title changed over to the VIN tag. It came to me from CA titled by the engine serial # as was common in Chevys of that age. Swifter is giving you SOLID GOLD advice when he said, "do your homework, know your car" I spent countless hours with the CA and PA DMVs expaining OVER and OVER again that once I changed the motor out of that truck the title would be void and that I was trying to avoid a future mess by changing it NOW. I was even told in the same breath that "yes, we would have given you an incorrect title today if you hadn't brought this to our attention, so now we won't give you a title, and it is now your problem if you have an issue and can't verify the vehicle"
TRUST ME when I say I had to explain the situation to NUMEROUS non-car people before my "case" got elevated to an investigation and someone from the DMV did enough research to verify my information was true and not a shady attempt at illegally changing a VIN. It took research, knowledge, and most of all PERSISTENCE to get it done correctly. Who'da thunk it?! A GIRL knew more about cars than a bunch of DMV employees?! (I know, you're shocked)
It would have been MUCH easier to just skate by and not change the engine serial #. Honestly. The DMV thought I was making it all up. I am EXTREMELY glad I jumped through the hoops to make this right for down the road. The peace of mind I now have regardless of what I do to the truck was WELL worth the month long fiasco.

 

Lots of real good information, all of which may not help you correctly title your vehicle in your state. Every state is different, and even the different offices can vary. When my 56 F100 was built, a 55 frame was used. A call to the State Patrol Vehicle Inspection Station was made, and they said to license it using the VIN from the frame and not the cab. It's now titled as a 55, the numbers on the frame match the title, but the cab and sheet metal are 56. A few years later that system changed and they would have inspected the truck and assigned a VIN, required registration only for 2 years, maybe a bond also. Even if you owned both vehicles, that was the procedure to clear the title. Now it's similar, but the vehicle must be brought up to current regs, including emissions, if it's not original. There should be a way to title cars like ours legally, with all the correct receipts, but it's very hard to do now. People on here probably aren't looking to register something stolen, just to register what they've built, to have what others have, but it's almost impossible now in some states unless you start with a clean titled , stock, vehicle or go through back-door methods. After a hundred vehicles or more, as many trips to the DMV and inspection stations, now I won't consider anything unless there is a title with a VIN that I verify on both the steel and the paper, and untitled bodies or frames aren't even considered any more.

 

Who's responsibility is it to ACCURATELY represent YOUR vehicle. I've seen all kinds of posts over the last few years of how to get a title that didn't belong to the car so you(sic) could incorrectly title the car and get plates for it.

No one asks what the insurance company requires or why they require it. If something happen to your car that's bad enough to total it, why should they buy your car if the paperwork doesn't match the car? Why should the insurance company be on the hook because you didn't want to title your car the right way?

Why does an insurance company have to ask if you have a VIN when that is required by every state in the union? Like it or not, it is YOUR job to prove YOUR loss.

Maybe if I can find a customer who is willing to put his car and his loss in front of god and country, I'll go thru the whole process. Step 1 is documenting the vehicle. This means verifying the VIN, the mileage, license plate and pictures of all four corners before I even look at the damage. If the VIN doesn't match, I don't accuse anyone of anything. I ask questions. Where is your VIN? Why is the VIN plate not on the car.

9 out of 10 times, this isn't an issue. It's the guy who thinks his VIN plate takes away from the car being cool. Or buying something from a field and looking for the easy way out instead of the right way. Who's fault is that. If you insure your car for $40K and it's totaled, you want your money. Like anyone else spending $40K on a car, they want to know that what they're buying matches the paperwork. What is the problem with that?