History We ALL Love a DARE! PIX of TRULY Extinct Makes?

Very interesting thread, indeed! Henry did try some wild stuff. But here's the pic and comment by Greasball from Post #12 on the thread, wherein he speculated that a stock Model T crank was used. Well, you'd have four connecting rods with nothing to connect to, wouldn't ya? I have to believe a crank had to be created specially to accommodate eight pistons and their con rods. The cap there seems to indicate a firing order of eight independently. The "stock crank" comment just threw me, I'm saying.



Here's a pic. It apparently used the 4 banger stock crank and cam and carb.

 

It was called The "Jones" Speedometer

http://books.google.com/books?id=Tu...Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=jones speedometer&f=false

There is some controversy as to what the first car was to have one though on the AACA forum;

http://forums.aaca.org/f129/first-use-speedometer-162415.html

Today's Quiz;

In 1902, (who?) was arrested for the speeding in access of 10 M.P.H. and fined $10 and (what?) city was it in?

 

Joseph W. Jones

http://books.google.com/books?id=OM...AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=jones speedometer&f=false

 

Just askin' wouldn't compression and exhaust be 180 degress off allowing the "T" crank configuration used as a crude design and cheap design cylinder angle notwhitstanding? Considering spark advance/retard etc?

 

Yeah, HJ, there is a LOT we can't see from the outside. I'd surely like to see some schematics and some tech info on one of these.

Also, Henry was known for hiring engineers, THEN telling them every move to make. Not a good way to encourage creative approaches to meeting desired ends!

 

2 con rod per journal Jimi, there are pics of the inside on the other thread.
I remember of an australian guy who did a Peugeot 403 V8 by connecting together 2 Peugeot 203 4cylinder and he used the stock crank and he too put 2 connecting rod per journal.

 

So, Chrisp, you're saying that they redesigned the con rods to change from ONE rod per journal to TWO rods per journal.

 

Doesn`t appear to be a lot of off-set between the banks....Knife/fork con. rods maybe ??

 

theres some new pix showing more angles and the bottom end of the engine and shows 2 rods per throw. have to read through the entire posting to get the whole story. This is engine was a private enterprise and built in San Bernardino Ca. 1917. Ford Motor co. wasnt involved and 20 to 30 engines were reportedly built.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=230258

 

well now that I look back at my introduction of this engine as 'first model T V8', I have to explain it wasnt made by Ford Motor Co. It was a private effort in 1917. reportedly 20 or 30 engines were made using parts of the T, 4 banger.

 

Jim Hawker also used (narrowed) stock rods. 75 mm bore x 73 stroke
2580cc, 115 mph @ 4500 rpm and 28 mpg according to Phil Irving's Modern Motor Jan. '68 report (pdf on request)
Had been exhibited in Gembrook, but now ...

 

Well, guys, THAT was an interesting exchange today, I'll say. I learned a ton, and that's one of the things that make this thread fun!

THANKS!!!

That Henry intervened with a cease & desist order is also interesting, though Henry, too, wound up with a V-8, after he'd tried all his own X-8, etc. experiments. (Once again, THANKS, EDSEL FORD!)

 

So- if this was done in 1917 would one think that the idea may have been sparked by the Packard "Twin Six" designed and released on May 1,1915?

Packard built its early success as the standard American luxury car with the four-cylinder Thirty of 1907-1912 and the mighty Six of 1912-1915. But the model that really cemented Packard's reputation as a make of the highest rank was the 1916-1923 Packard Twin Six, which one-upped Cadillac's 1915 V-8 with four more cylinders and lasted with relatively few changes for eight years: a remarkably long run.

In three series between 1916 and 1923, Packard built slightly more than 35,000 Twins, including numerous chassis for custom bodies. The Twin Six was the chief reason why, when the wealthy ordered a custom-bodied car, they tended to choose a Packard chassis.
Jesse Vincent, Packard's chief engineer, liked the 12-cylinder layout for three reasons: performance, smoothness, and silence. "A six-cylinder motor is theoretically in absolutely perfect balance," he wrote. "This is because the vibratory forces due to the rise and fall of one piston are neutralized by equal and opposite forces due to another...Now it is only possible to cancel out forces in this way if they are tied together strongly."
This meant a heavy crankcase and crankshaft and a rigid flywheel. But a Twelve or "Twin Six," Vincent continued, would provide the same rigidity and smoothness with less piston, crankcase, flywheel, and crankshaft weight -- and provide more horsepower and torque, to boot. He preferred a V-12 to a V-8 because a V-8 would require a wider frame, larger turning radius, and more complicated steering gear.
The Twin Six engine duly embodied the above principles, with two banks of L-head cylinders set at a 60-degree angle (versus 90 degrees in Cadillac's V-8). This allowed accessories to be bolted just below the frame, where they were protected from road hazards, while keeping the valves accessible.
Delivering 85 horsepower at 3,000 rpm, a bore and stroke at 3.00 × 5.00 inches resulted in a displacement of 424 cubic inches. Rockers were eliminated, with a separate cam for each valve, and all valves were located inboard of the cylinder blocks. A short, light crankshaft ran in three main bearings.
Vincent proclaimed that torque was "50 percent better than it would have been with a V-8, and 100 percent better than the Packard Six. Six impulses per crankshaft revolution blend together so closely as to make it absolutely impossible to distinguish any pause between impulses, even at very low engine speeds...The only thing I can liken it to is the action of steam."

<CENTER>
©Nicky Wright
With 12 cylinders and a 3.00 x 5.00-inch bore x stroke, displacement of the L-head Twin Six came to 424.1 cid. In 1920, it was rated at 90 bhp at 2,600 rpm and was cast in two blocks of six cylinders each.
</CENTER><CENTER> </CENTER>

The introduction of the 1916 Packard Twin Six on May 1, 1915 was the greatest single announcement in Packard's history to date. Testing one, The Automobile (a British motoring magazine) declared that it met Vincent's three design criteria: "No vibration was perceptible up to a road speed of well over 60 mph and the motor is hardly audible even at full revolutions...there is no sense of effort whatever in opening up from 3 mph in high gear...it was easy to accelerate from 3 mph to 30 mph in 12 seconds and on second speed in a much shorter time."​

 

Yes Jimi, they probably did like Hawker did: machining down the rods in order to be able to fit them on the crank.
I have a photocopy of an old article on the 403 V8 with a ton of tech infos on how he did that, I wonder if it comes from the same article?

I got one for you guys. It shouldn't be too hard though: Who was the manufacturer of the first V8 engine?

 

In 1902, Léon Levavasseur patented a V8 engine. He called it the 'Antoinette' after the daughter of his financial backer. From 1904 he installed this engine in a number of competition speedboats and early aircraft.

 

T H Shevlin was fined $10 in Minneapolis for speeding more than 10mph over limit.

http://local.aaca.org/bntc/mileposts/1902.htm

 

Don't forget that the Chevrolet Motor Car Company also had a Series D V8 available in 1917-1918:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917-1918_Chevrolet_Series_D_V8

"The Chevrolet Series D V8 is an American, liquid-cooled, 288 cu in (4.7 L) capacity, V8 piston automobile internal combustion engine, designed and built by Chevrolet Motor Car Company in 1917 and General Motors Company's new Chevrolet Division (acquired as part of Chevrolet's 1917 takeover of, and merger into, GM) in 1917 and 1918. It is capable of producing 36 horsepower (26.8 kW) @2700 RPM. This was Chevy's first V8 and the first overhead valve V8. Chevrolet wouldn't make another V8 until the debut of the famous small-block in 1955."
.........................................




http://forums.aaca.org/f120/1917-chevrolet-v8-help-271337.html




http://www.gmphotostore.com/1917-Chevrolet-Series-D-Engine/productinfo/53216861/



Chevrolet V-8, 288, 55 hp, made &#8203;&#8203;in 1917 and 1918. Total production: 6,350 units

http://infocarbr.blogspot.com/2010/04/motores-antigos.html



http://www.oldengine.org/members/billd/v8_1.jpg

 

Ok, but in our favorite mode of transportation?

 

"Six impulses per crankshaft revolution blend together so closely as to make it absolutely impossible to distinguish any pause between impulses, even at very low engine speeds...The only thing I can liken it to is the action of steam..."

HJ, though that is an observation on the Packard Twin-Six, it answers what was going to be my next logical question about the firing order of the '17 Model-T V-8 experimental.

Also, it would seem that power would be gained, though at the sacrifice of fuel efficiency. And you SURELY wouldn't want a cross-fire, would you???? Better make sure of distributor and plug connections, eh?!?

 

Runs in my mind, there was a good HAMB thread -- oh, maybe a tad over a year ago -- on the FIRST practical, regular-production V-8s.

It touched on the flatties and OHVs, et.al. A BUNCH of companies busted out V-8s in 1916 (Caddy, Peerless & King come to mind), but that's a good point about the '17 Chevy OHV, which some visiting the thread may NOT have heard of! (Incidentally, would that have been a Northway project?)

HJ and Gary: Didn't both you guys post on that thread? Remember what it was TITLED, so people may go look it up??? THANKS in advance!
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What is the oldest American automotive OHV V8?

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=419716

 

OK, folks, THERE's the thread title and the link, THANKS to HJManiac!

 

"The 1933 Willys 99 - The Car The
Banks Wouldn't Finance"

Not an extinct make necessarily, but
certainly an extinct model.....the 1933
6-cylinder "Willys 99". The "99" had a
longer wheelbase and was to have
been a deluxe, 6-cylinder, 'big brother'
companion model to the diminutive
4-cylinder Willys 77. It was listed in the
Willys spec books for 1933, and Willys
published a color brochure showing the car,
(http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/wokr/films/wil_99br.pdf )
- but other than one - and perhaps two -
factory prototypes, the 99 was never
produced, due to the banks refusing to
loan any more money to the severely
Depression-ravaged and by 1933, nearly
bankrupt Willys-Overland Motor Company.

Mart3406
=====================

 

I thought I might get a little flack for a non-automotive V-8 reference.

 

Some 1933 'Willys 99' Brochure images.

You can see the full brochure at:
http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/...s/wil_99br.pdf

Mart3406
================

 

I was aware that Seagrave continued production of the Pierce V12 and made it bigger. Does anyone know whether it was always still the same size lump or did they cast a bigger block for it? If they did it would mean few parts wouls interchange. I have never seen one in the metal.

 

------------------
There were at least two completely
different Seagrave V12's - the smaller
V12, based on the original Peirce-Arrow
car engine design - and the later and
much bigger 906 cubic inch V12 that used
a different block and heads and had little
if anything in common with the Pierce
engine.

Mart3406
========================

 

chrisp,

I believe you are looking for - De Dion-Bouton.

However, there were other V8 powered cars prior to the 1910 De Dion-Bouton.
1905 Darracq land speed record car.
1905-1906 Rolls Royce Legalimit V8 (3 cars built).
Possibly Renault or Buchet V8 aircraft engines were adapted to automobiles.
Circa 1904-08 Marmon
Circa 1906-08 Adams - used "Antoinette" engine.
Circa 1906-10 The Coyote (Built at Rodondo Beach, California)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_engine


http://www.motorera.com/history/hist03.htm




1908 Adams V8 Touring Car - used the Antoinette aero engine.


http://www.vintagecarheritage.com/who-built-the-first-v-8-engine/


Another possible - 1904 Ader - race car version.

"Ader was financially well off from his inventions and work, but he could not stop. In 1900 his company, Societe Industrielle des Telephones- Voitures Systeme Ader started producing the Ader automobile. It featured a V-twin motor of 904 ccs, with chain drive to the wheels. In 1904 this was upgraded to shaft drive from a four cylinder engine. In 1903 two of these engines were grafted together to make a 3.6 litre V8 engine to power a car in the Paris-Madrid race. "

http://www.bobsoldphones.net/Pages/Essays/Ader/Ader.htm

 

Thanks, HJ. That's not a bad read.