Is anybody driving anything with an early Hemi daily? How do they do in a setting like that? Granted, they'll likely do as well as they did in the 50s, but what mods have you made for daily use? What carb/transmission setup are you running? What about ignition and fuel grade? ~Jason
I haven't for 10 years roughly but i did in a 58 chrysler new yorker witha 392. It was an awesome daily motor. I ended up replacing the WCFB with an edelbrock 600 (afb) and i did the mopar performance LA motor electronic igniton/distributor and had the shaft lengthened with the hot heads kit. After that it was super reliable, and i loved not messing with the points. I had a stock torqueflight (a-466). I kept the motor when i sold the car to a guy doing a 300d resto, and its the motor i will use in my Plymouth. I ran regular and it didn't seem to mind, but ill probably run premium with my new cam. Hemis don't mind shitty gas as much as the wedge motors do. My plan is for a mild cam, possibly efi (or that edelbrock) on a hot heads intake with an a-518 behind it. Should be a sweet cruiser.
I used to have a '57 Chrysler Imperial with a 392. I put the cheapest gas in her and she just ran and ran.
I'm planning on my 331 2x4 to be a driver. I'm getting there with the help of 73RR, Scooter, TR Waters, & GMC Bubba. I also got a nice custom cam from Bob at Hot Heads. Also, paying for the alliance membership was worth it in discounts. I just need to learn early dual quad setups now (WCFB's and the like)
I drove a 51 merc with a 392 adapted to the Merc trans. I drove it for two years including a trip from Michigan to Florida. It was my only ride. The motor was stock ,out of a junkyard.It got a tuneup and a paint job and went straight into the Merc.Dead nuts reliable.
No by I got a high compression 394 that I plan on daily driving. Its just an internal cumbustion (sic) engine. Other than the configuration of the valves it isn't any different than driving an SBC. I may have to methane spray mine, but that remains to be seen. I won't know for sure until I wire it and fire it. If I have enough overlap I'll be OK and if I don't I'll have to give it some Octane help at low vacuum. About the only time you have spark rattle is when you are under load. When you are under load your vacuum drops, a second tank filled with methane and sprayed into the runners will cure it. you can make that happen with a vacuum sensitive switch to start your methane pump. On a blown motor you would want to use a boost sensitive switch it is a little more involved than with a naturally aspirated engine. You could possibly fore go the methane by water spraying it. The theory being that you would cool your incoming fuel charge thus making it more dense. But the methane is a sure thing, and if you are going to be spraying it anyway why not give yourself a boost.
I'm actually unafraid to mention EFI here on the HAMB. After mating this 331 to my A-833 Overdrive slushbox, running 3.55-ish gears, my thoughts were centered around how this thing would do after it was pressed into work again on a daily basis. The more I think about it, stock seems the way to go. I'd planned on keeping the 2-bbl, or maybe EFI of the same size. Stock cam (unless there's something better for my application), stock 70s small block Mopar electronic ignition (with adapter), stock water pump, stock generator with a 12v conversion, etc. Stock just screams "guys who get paid more than you set this up this way so idiots couldn't run it into the ground as fast, in a way that sucked the least." Not fast, but reliable - I've faced it, I'll never be on the track! We've all heard, "Speed costs money. How fast you want to go?" Since I'm just going to and from work, and maybe the store, close to stock is all right by be. And while lots of speed parts might make it more efficient, I can't afford to pay for the 93+ octane gas to feed it. Don't get me wrong, if I find an Edmunds 2x2, it's going on there, damn it! But bottom line, I just want to be able to fill up with 87 octane, turn a key, and go. Most of the above are a personal preference - running all stone stock stuff would likely perform just as well 6v, points, etc). After all, that old motor doesn't know it's not 1955, and would keep on going. What I was most curious about was transmissions and highway use... And of course, if anyone had feather-edged their way through a tankful of gas on one of these to get them until payday (and a full tank), and what kind of real-world mileage to expect so I can plug revised fuel costs into my budget. I mean, do you think this pig could get 15/25?
Abomination It doesn't matter how many carbs you run you will not need to go to higher octane fuel until you raise the compression. Your 331 2bbl is not a high compression engine. If you want good fuel mileage gear it so that you are running at highway speed right at the bottom of your power band. That should get you where you want to be at least with that a as good a tune up as you are capable of you will get the best mileage you can get from the old pig. You would actually get better fuel mileage from a single small 4 bbl than a single 2 bbl. I don't know what you are putting this in as I haven't been following your build but your fuel consumption on the highway will also be effected on the body and the shape of it. A bill board doesn't cut through the wind as well as a butter knife, if you catch my drift. 12-15 MPG is probably a realistic number on the highway if your engine isn't wore slap out.
It's going in a brick of a '48 - '50 Ford 3/4 Ton. I'm still deciding where I want my power band to be, as it's a commuter/TV & fridge & lawnmower hauler/occasional tow vehicle. I'm all set compression-wise (low), and as for torque, I have plenty by default. And I've been seriously wavering between the single 4-bbl and single 2-bbl. As this is a "run whatcha brung" kind of deal, and I'm working with what I have, and will be stuck with the 2-bbl for a while. Or EFI if I can scrap one together from found parts and make it fit. My 15/25 MPG figure is stuck in my mind from my high school days, when my mom drove a 307-powered Olds wagon. More or less, I end up using it as a base for what a middle-of-the-line V-8 should be - that's where that figure came from. LOL! And folks, don't get me wrong - I too, subscribe to the school of "if you have to worry about MPG, you shouldn't have a hot rod" mentality upon occasion. But I just want to put something together and start enjoying it NOW, and I'm trying to lay the groundwork for a rebuild or re-do further down the line after we pay a few bills off, etc and there's enough money for me to move up a notch. But for now, if I'm going to do this, I have to do it on the cheap. The Mrs has a new 400+ hp Super Track Pack Challenger to feed. ~Jason
Good to know - I'd always assumed the stock low-compression models were probably okay on the cheap stuff. ~Jason
If you have a 2bl long tail the official C/R is 7.5 & actual could be as low as 6.5 from what I've heard about measured c/rs. My '55 is rated @ 8.5 & has no problems with 87.
As said, your Hemi is just another 331 cubic inch engine. No better or worse than any other 331 cu-in piece. The driveability issues are a result of carb vs injection; low compression vs 'high' compression; computer controlling the ignition vs an 'old' electronic; and of course the way you drive and exactly what it is that you are driving; and on and on. ...way back in ancient times, there was a move to 'super-high' compression, something in the 6.0:1 range.... Your 331 has (by today's standards) low compression. That does not mean that that was the best that the engineers could offer, rather, it was the best that would work in concert with everything else in the 1954 package. As the rest of the 'package' was improved upon the compression numbers went up. In 1958 10:1 was simply an average number. IMHO, you will not make massive amounts of power with a stock cam (likely worn out) and 8:1 compression, and I believe you will be sorely disappointed. Yes, many folks have just slapped together whatever was laying loose and called it good. But how much does that cost compared to a proper rebuild with the parts that will actually do the best job for your 'package'? If the bores are worn you will need pistons. Are you thinking about pushing your luck and re-using the old slugs with whatever clearances are there by default? The cost difference between new cast @ 8:1 and forged @ 10:1 is about $400. Same deal with the cam. I have yet to find a stock cam that wasn't worn out (different lifts and duration from lobe to lobe). OK, some weren't as bad as others but nonetheless all needed a regrind. And unless you carefully labeled each lifter position then you cannot re-use them. I betting that a straight edge will show them equally worn out. Old 2bbl? There is a reason why the carburetor has undergone so many changes since 1954.....efficiency. Yes, a TBI is likely going to be more efficient than most 4-bbl setups and outfits like Painless have given us stand-alone wiring sets for retrofitting. But, back to the cost deal. Just how much is a TBI package compared to a 650 spreadbore? How much fuel can you buy with the difference? A fresh 331 with compression, cam, induction and ignition tailored to your package will be the most efficient and cost effective option. Keep us posted! Gary
I notice posts stating running 87 or 89 octane without problems. Are the valve seats reworked on these engines??? Bill
Just out of curiosity Gary, what kind of setup would you suggest to accomplish my goal? It's a late 331 I'm running an A-833 OD I have 3.55 gears I'll be running AC and a stock water pump I'll also be running an Imperial power steering pump/generator (upped to 12v) The fuel system I go with will determine if I use the stock fuel pump or not. I'd like to run 87 octane Driving will be 80% highway, 19% in-town, and 1% tow I'm after the sweet spot where economy meets performance - just like the rest of the world - but I'm not quite sure how these rev, or exactly where in the power band power is made to determine where I want mine to be. The performance doesn't have to be high, per-se, but I do have to pass old ladies on the highway upon occasion. As you've lived and breathed the Hemi longer than I have, I was wondering (based on this) if you could lend me your expertise and give me a couple of suggestions as to: 1. Cam 2. Big, stock 2-bbl, or 4-bbl (what kind of CFMs should I be cramming in) 3. Compression ratio 4. Headers, stock exhaust manifolds (which I don't have), or truck exhaust manifolds I'm in a 3/4-ton truck, running on 16" radials sitting at "farm truck" height. I'm wanting to get back and forth to work and to ditch my Ranger. I'm also wanting to build a foundation that'll last as long as I want it to, but be easy to go to a higher performance later on, as finances allow. Any ideas? ~Jason
You can run 1 point higher C/R on a hemi vs wedge @ the same octane level. With proper cam & vac advance 87 with 9.5 should work. Carb, probably 600-650. The truck mans(4 bolt) flow better than car mans(2 bolt), & headers flow even better but with longevity questions.
I thought it was "no-lead" that supposedly caused valve/valve seat problems, not the octane itself. The octane has more to do with detonation, as I understand it. Ray
Wasn't the OD a-833 a weaker box than the normal a-833? IIRC that came in the feather dusters and had an aluminum case? I'd be concerned about that in a big truck and towing, you might look into it.
As noted, the octane can be an issue for alot of 'wedge' engines but not so much for a Hemi. In the last 10 years only a couple of engines actually left the shop with less than 10:1 compression and that was by the owners request. I have never had a customer come back and complain that he was having detonation problems with 10:1 and you have to assume that the average customer is going to put in cheap fuel. Plenty of cam profiles to choose from but you will do well with something around 270* (220 @ 50) x 0.470 lift. If you keep overlap on the low side (30*-50*) you will trap more cylinder pressure and make a bit more grunt. Don't mess with the LSA, stay in the 110-112 range. (You might also consider using the old 340 cam specs. It makes plenty of power.) The truck exhaust manifolds (4-bolt flange) are excellent for your application although as George noted headers would be a bit better but a maintenance issue. If you are into S&M you could make headers; use 16 ga tubing and Jet-Hot coating and they should last a long time. Refresh my memory..."late 331", but you say "big stock 2-bbl" '53, '54 or '55?? The difference is in the intake manifold. '55-56 intake can be bored out to match the Holley pattern and then you have 100's of carb options including a spread-bore on a funnel. The '54 intake can be opened up but not as far. still, plenty of carbs to pick from in the 600-650 range. If you are dealing with the 51-53 2-bbl intake then the best option is a '70's 2-bbl from a 360. Same bore spacing, different bolt pattern. If you want a TBI then look for one of the giant 2-hole units used on a comparable sized GM...350 comes to mind...check the web for a stand-alone wiring harness. Be sure that they are specifying related components that are readily available at pik-n-pull or NAPA. As to the 3.55 gear, in OD your effective ratio will be about 2.5. I don't think it will work. (The 3.55 final would put you around 3000 rpm at 60 depending on the tire od.) Play with one of the on-line calculators. I think you should target around 2000 at cruise speed. I'm sure that others will also opine. Gary
The OD A833 is a slightly weaker set up than a regular A833. But, I still know several people that use the OD behind 440's without issue, so weaker is a relative term. The standard A833's are pretty bombproof, the OD's are slightly less so. The way the OD is set up puts a little more stress on the main shaft, which is why ma Mopar put bigger diameter bearings in the OD's. But they're still in that aluminum case. In heavy towing applications you might end up wearing out the case around the bearings a little faster. But that's a long term wear problem, not a catastrophic failure problem. And, if it really bothers you, the cases are the same. You can swap the entire interals out of an OD 833 into a cast iron 833 case. You can't to it piece mail though, because the OD guts will not play with the standard 833 guts.
I have a '56 DeSoto 330, slightly bumpy cam, Ross pistons, Joe Hunt HEI mag, a late 50's Chrysler alternator, six Holley 94's on an Eelco log intake, and a T5 trans. I drive it A LOT. Not daily per say, but a lot. Its just like any other old V8. Pay attention, take care of it, learn its habits, no problems. Early Hemis rule.
Gary, I was thinking about 9.5:1 on my 331, but I like the idea of 10:1 better. I will be using original '54 oval port heads. My new hemi cam specs 224* at .050", 274* advertised .485" valve lift with 1.5 ratio orig rockers 112 LSA Will 10 to 1 be ok? What should I set the timing at?
How much overlap? It looks like a good profile and with 10:1 it should help make for a stout 331. (Ignition and induction will also be big factors.) Timing will be where ever the 'package' likes it, but an initial guess is 10-12*. As someone pointed out, find the highest vacuum spot for whatever rpm you are trying to dial in, e.g., cruising speed. My general rule is to Not exceed 35* total.
You need to run lead substitute on all these old engines unless you have hard seats installed. Upping the octane does not replace the lead which was a cushion for your valves.
OK and why do suppose they would run factory hardened valves and seats when lead free fuel hadn't been invented yet unless you are thinking of white gas as used in camp stoves and lanterns? This is just a question not to say that you are wrong. It just doesn't sound like a selling point that would have been used in the 50s. You are aware that I am going to have to dig out some old manuals and ads now right?
Agreed, in part, but as George notes the 331 should have induction hardened seats. The need for new hard seats is questionable. My understanding of the original hard seat is that the cast head would have been a 'wear' part...not a great idea. Now, the need for using a lead substitute is a factor of how many miles you expect out of the valve job. Not only did/does lead cushion the valve contact face, it also lubricated the valve stems. This issue can be resolved by not installing stem seals and allowing oil to provide the lube. If the stem clearance is right then oil consumption will be negligible. Remember, we have very little oil flying around under an EarlyHemi valve cover, it is more like a 'fog'.
35* max = thanks Intake will be edmunds 2x4 and a pair of WCFB's. Exh will be truck 4 bolt manifolds and 2.5 tubes. Factory '53 dist, with a pertronix module and MSD6al box. '54 heads will be stock, but I may have larger valves installed
I'll take your word for that. I have actually spent some time looking around in several publications and don't see in anything that I have at hand about induction hardened seats or hard seats at all. That doesn't mean that the 331 didn't have them just that I am not seeing them in what I can lay my hands on. I do know that one of the litmus tests from my knowledge of Chrysler history was that a hemi should go 100k without any hard parts failures, and that there were some obstackles that had to be overcome early on. Cam failure was one of the major problems, but before they were allowed to go into production that was cured.
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