History We ALL Love a DARE! PIX of TRULY Extinct Makes?

There are some other pretty rare WILLYS in addition to the 99. Have a read of this:

http://willysdownunder.webatu.com/How.where.when.why.html

From 1937 to WW2 there were up to six Australian companies building bodies for WILLYS right hand drive, semi knock down assemblies. Some styles will be in the very rare or extinct category.

 

Back to things FORD MODEL T:

How rare would an original Livingood 4x4 conversion be?



"This 1919 Model T touring car was the elder Livingood's test machine and was photographed for an ad that ran in 1923. This car was stolen that year in Chicago, but Jesse built another that he drove until at least 1941."

http://fourwheeler.automotive.com/113722/129-0205-1915-ford-model-t-speedster-4wd/index.html

Jesse L. Livingood had a better idea. Seeing the need for four-wheel drive on the terrible roads of the day, he sought to develop a system at a cost more people could afford. In 1914, at the tender age of 20, he perfected a four-wheel-drive conversion kit for the Model T. What better rig than the T? It was light, readily available, solid, and simple.

The kit consisted of a front axle (converted from a standard Model T rear), a revised front spring, a transfer case, a front driveshaft, and some miscellaneous pieces. The first kits used a single-speed, chain-driven transfer case with an in-out lever for the front output. The later conversion incorporated a Warford auxiliary transmission, which was a two- or three-speed box, and had full-time four-wheel drive with a lockable center differential. The two-speed unit had an underdrive, to aid the T's rip-snorting 20 horsepower engine on rough terrain, and a 1:1 ratio for flat ground. In the three-speed Warford, an Overdrive was added and the later engines almost had the power to handle it.



Read more: http://fourwheeler.automotive.com/1...odel-t-speedster-4wd/index.html#ixzz1LT0J0lMF



http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/43906.html?1199070530

Patent 1,881,201 issued on 4 October 1932 to J F Livingood:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=jExLAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=jesse+f+livingood&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q=jesse%20f%20livingood&f=false


Reproduction:



http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/119726.html?1262806596​

 

From:

http://www.therangerstation.com/resources/history_of_4x4.htm

The History of the American 4 X 4.

May extinct or nearly extinct examples on the link.


So who first built the 4x4 in the United States?
We may not know for sure.
It seems there were many people experimenting with the concept.
American Motor Truck Company and Duplex Power Car both started producing and selling 4x4's around 1906, but there isn't any clear record as to who was first.
Otto Zachow tested and built a 4x4 with his brother-in-law, William Besserdich and patented it in 1908. They would build the FWD Corporation and Besserdich would later leave to form Oshkosh Motor truck Company in 1917. While both companies would survive, Oshkosh is still a very strong company producing some impressive heavy duty 4x4's. Oshkosh is probably the longest producer of 4x4's in the United States.


The nod for the first producer of 1/2 ton 4x4 trucks would go to Marmon Herrington and the 1937+ Fords.

The first factory (assembly line) built 1/2 ton trucks sold to the public would have to go GMC in 1956, Chevrolet in 1957, and Ford in 1959.​

 

Image from the Photos Taken Before WWII thread, here’s one submitted by T-Head just prior to the above photo, showing a homebuilt four-wheel drive car constructed with parts from a circa-1912 Buick and one MAMMOTH steering wheel. Anybody have any info on this one?

 

Nice Job Mr. Fire. So. I'm wondering if I should continue these little quiz's
of automotive history or maybe start a separate thread and call it "Test Your Knowledge Of Automotive History" ????

 

Hello from Iceland.

I was just looking at the 1919 Dixie Flyer yesterday. Well actually I have seen it a lot of times.

I think it has wrong front fenders and headlights but it is in pretty good unrestored mostly original condition.

Here are some photos:





I should be able to get some better photos.

Regards,
Johann
Iceland

 

-----------------------------
Not truly extinct because thousands were
built, first for WWI and then later, through
to 1928, still more were built for use on
various civilian construction and road
building projects and mining operations etc
worldwide - and several examples have
survived in various museums and collections,
but one of the first commercially successful.
mass produced 4X4's was the Jeffery (and
then after 1916, renamed 'Nash') "Quad"
truck.

Mart3406
=======================

 

Very cool!
Thanks for the pictures of this rare car.
There has to be some story as to how it ended up in Iceland and how it survived all these years.

 

Welcome to the HAMB, Johann!

Wow, there's been a lot of excitement on this thread since I had to sign off early yesterday afternoon to go work on cars (duh!)!!!

THANK YOU for posting photos of the Iceland Dixie Flyer touring car! I don't think any of us regulars even knew what YEAR it was, specifically, only that there was one in Iceland. I'm redundant, but THIS IS EXCITING! Now, we can count a '19 tourer and a '22 sport roadster Firefly among the 3-1/2 known Dixie Flyers known still to exist. (We don't yet know details about the runner said to be in Texas; however, there WAS an unrelated "Dixie Junior" manufactured in Texas, SO, is it really a Flyer -- or something else? Then there's the disassembled Flyer said to be in Louisville, KY, but we can't know just HOW complete that car is.)

1919 would have been the final year the Dixie Flyer had the Lycoming four-cylinder, as the company switched to a virtually identical Herschell-Spillman for 1920 (17-hp/40-hp). It's interesting (for me, anyway) to note that, indeed, the hood side panels on the Iceland specimen lack the portals that appeared in the Flyer's final years. So, it would appear to be a sort of second-to-last Flyer series, just my two-cents'-worth.)

YES! We'd love to see as many more shots as you can manage to take and post, from all angles. THANKS in advance for your continued efforts, Johann! BTW, it appears to be in some sort of museum. Just where is it, and in what city? And, as SWI inquired, how and when did the car get to Iceland and under whose husbandry? We'd sincerely appreciate as much background history as you can discover. THANKS again!

 

First four-wheel-drive??? Yup, I think it'll be hard to nail it down definitively, as several people seem to have laid claim, PERHAPS, unaware some else had done it, or even beaten them -- sort of like when someone says they have the only Martin Wasp, unaware that another well-preserved one is in a museum a few states away.

Anyway! FIRST SPEEDING TICKET! St. Louis, 1905! (from an AACA forum)

 

As we close in on 5,000 posts, HERE are some examples of a FEW cars we've searched and determined to be either EXTINCT (red below) or Ultra-Rare (in black). INPUT IS ALWAYS WELCOME, but please provide any specifics you have, not just a make/marque.

FYI, the regulars have agreed to what I call the "SWI Rule of Thumb." When we search everywhere and find no evidence of survival of a make or model's survival to present day, we say, "Presumed EXTINCT, until proven otherwise."

As I said, these are but a few examples. SunRoof was going to keep a running list, but somebody jumped in and said it was NOT needed, since the thread is searchable. Me, I'm a list guy, and now I wish we HAD a comprehensive one from the last 20 months of searching!
________________________________________________


Abbott (not Abbott-Detroit -- any?)
Adams-Farwell (1)
AlCo (?)
American Berliet (?)
American Junior (0 -- one-cyl. kids' car)
Anger/AEC (0)
Argonne* (1 -- only 24 made)
Albatross (1 of 1 -- Peter Arno)

Bay State (1 -- later version)
Barbarino (0 -- of 10 or less made)
Beaver (1)
Benson (0 of 1)
Ben Hur (0 -- only 40 made)
Birmingham (0 -- only 50 made)
Black Crow (? -- rebadged Crow-Elkhart)
Bremac (0 of 2 prototypes)
Brogan & Broganette
(0 -- '46-'52, odd 3-wheel micro-car series)
Bull Moose and Baby Moose (0)
Burg (1)

Carhartt (0)
Carroll (1 later, of 3 diff. marques)
Centaur (0)
Coats Steamer (0 -- Sandusky, OH)
Colt (1 -- by American Underslung)
Colt Runabout (0)
Compound (1, Eisenhuth - ?)
Custer (0)
Cutting (2)
Cycleplane (?)

Deere & Deere-Clark (?)
DeSoto (0 -- made by Zimmerman, non-Chrysler)
DeVo (1 of 1)
Dixie Flyer (3-4)
Dragon (1 - ?)
Duquesne (0)
Dymaxion (1-?)

Fal-Car/FAL (0 -- "u-name-it" scheme by Wahl)
Falcon (0 -- made only '22 by Halladay, Newark, OH)

Fawick Flyer (1 of 6)
Fox (1)
Frayer-Miller (1 - ?)

Geronimo (0)
Gregory ('22 & '49 -- 1 each)

Halladay (?)
Harding (0)
Havers (?)
Heine-Velox (0 -- early version)
Heine Velox (3? -- later version)
Herschell-Spillman (0)
Hertz (?)
Holley (1)
HolTan (0)

Indian (1)
Indian Tri-Car (?)

Jaeger (0)
Julian (1)

King (0 -- 1896, Chas. B. King; first
car on the streets of Detroit)

Leach/Leach Steamer (early version -- 0)
Lewis Aeromobile (1)
Lincoln (0 -- pre-Leyland version)
Little Detroit Speedster (cyclecar -- 0)
Little Princess (cyclecar -- 0)
LittleMac (0)
Logan (0)
LuVerne (1)
LuLu (cyclecar -- 0)

Mason (3)
Majestic (1917 -- 0)
Marquette (early version -- 0)
Maxim (?)

Maytag (?)
Metz Plan (1-?)
Monarch (???)
Moosejaw (0 -- aka Continental)
Murray (0)
Murray-Mac) (0)

Nadig (1)
Northern (aka "Silent" Northern, 2-?)
Norwalk (1)
Nyberg (3)

OctoAuto (0 of 1 -- Reeves)
Owen Magnetic (2 - ?)


Panda (0)
Paramount (?)
Paxton Phoenix (1 of 1)
Peninsular (0 - W. Durant, very few made, '12)
Penn (1 - ?))
Pennant (made by Barley -- 0)
Pennsy (?)
Pullman Six-Wheel (0)

Rainier (0)
Reeves (6-wheeler -- ?)
Revere (?)
RiChard (0)
Richelieu (0)
Richmond (2 - ?)**
Rollin (?)
Romer (?)

Samson (0 -- not Sampson, '22, few built)
Seagrave ('21 & '60 ?)
Shawmut (0)
Sheridan (2)
Singer (?)
Skelton (0)
Spacke (2 - ?)
Spaulding (0 -- first version)
Spaulding (part of 1, later version)
Sphynx (1 - ?)
Stafford (1 - 2?)
Stout Scarab (1946 -- 1)
Sun (?)

Texan (1 - ?)
The Only Car (?)
Trumbull (?)
Tulsa (?)

Vixen (?)
Vulcan (?)

WACO (0)
Wagenhals (0)
Washington (?)
Wasp (2)
Westinghouse (1 -- ?)
Windsor (1 -- made by Moon)
Wing Midget (0? -- 1922)
Winther (?)
Wolverine (? -- 1918, pre-REO)

Yale (1-?))
Yank (0 -- 1950 only; SoCal assembled sports car, not kit)

 

UPDATE TIME!

Now that we are at Post 5,000 -- an easy reference point to remember -- I think it's useful to do an update on how the thread has shaped up since we began a bit over a year-and-a-half ago.


Though the regulars on this thread know the ins and outs, 5,000 is an advantageous point to clarify guidelines and clear up questions for new visitors to the thread, whether lifelong car nuts or new to the hobby.

Most importantly, the thread title and guidelines have changed/broadened since we began!!! The thread has taken on a sort of vibrant energy and life of its own! Though the original title still appears on the main board, the official title was broadened (then refined) some time ago to, not only EXTINCT cars/trucks but: "Extinct, Ultra-Rare & Very Rare U.S. Makes & Models." Notably, we now ALSO include all FOREIGN, COACHBUILT, ONE-OFF, CONCEPT, PROTOTYPE cars/trucks, plus rarer engines and other components. We even discuss "Never-WUZ" vehicles, meaning they were drawn or mocked into clay, etc., but not produced. Of course, all posts need to adhere to HAMB guidelines, as always.

Popular demand is mainly WHY we broadened the thread. 250 pages, 5,000 posts and approaching 400,000 visitors attest to some degree of interest, right? In the beginning, people enjoyed searching and debating what marques are EXTINCT (no longer any in existence), but they also wanted to discuss makes that are not extinct, just very rare but DEFUNCT (out of business, caput), plus some makes that are still in business but feature some DARN RARE car or truck models. Essentially, EXTINCT still means we can't find even ONE, while DEFUNCT generally means you have to search darn hard, and then they're virtually unaffordable! LOL

Before someone asks, yes, we tried to change the thread title that appears on the main board (and on every post, for that matter), but we learned that it's a hard thing for the site editors to do. So, we make do, you know? Myself, I like the broadened approach in the thread, but it's a shame we can't tweak the main title occasionally to reflect reality.

Obviously, a steady stream of folks say they love the thread, learned something they didn't know, or want to contribute a piece of knowledge or just ask a question. Along the way, we've provided leads and links that, hopefully, have helped more than one HAMBer, ourselves included, to gain knowledge OR just have a great time kicking around car facts and pix! The feel of this thread is loose, so there's some good-natured ribbing. It's the HAMB! While we strive for accuracy, we don't behave like snooty know-it-alls. ANYONE is welcome to ask a question or contribute a pertinent item!

I would note that I collect info and photos from a plethora of sources -- and I always try to give full CREDIT, even when pix are vintage and in the public domain. (I think most posters here try and do this, as well.) In most instances, posters seem to try and provide a good link so that folks can go and actually SEE many more photos than we "borrow" for this thread. Only fair. To date I haven't heard one cross word, so maybe folks understand -- and maybe they even benefit from their material being shared here. I do hope so.

Thanks, REGULARS & VISTORS for your "public service," and THANKS to the HAMB for being the best board for traditional rodders and customizers!!! Been fun, compadres! MANY THANKS! Let's keep it going! And SO, I hope everybody will keep on seeking, searching and posting! -- Jimi

 

Terminology & General Guidelines
FYI, since this thread started, I gradually came to think in the following terms (EXAMPLES included, by way of illustration):

EXTINCT to mean ZERO survivors of a marque, model, body style, etc. (Examples: Barbarino, Beaver, Coats, DeSoto/early non-Chrysler version), Geronimo, Herschell-Spillman, Hol-Tan, LittleMac, Logan, Majestic, Murray, Murray-Mac, Panda, Peninsular, Ranier, RiChard, Shawmut, Spaulding/parts only, WACO, Woodhill Brushfire (child-size), etc.

ULTRA-RARE would be about a half-dozen or LESS. (Examples: Argonne, Adams-Farwell, Bay State, Crofton, Cutting, DeVo, Dixie Flyer, Dymaxion, Heine-Velox, Holley, Indian, Stout Scarab, Fawick Flyer, Fox, Lewis Aeromobile, Lincoln/pre-Leyland version, LuVerne, Metz Plan, Nadig, Norwalk, Nyberg, Queen, Sheridan, Skorpion, Stafford, Texan, Wasp (Martin), Westinghouse, Windsor, etc.

Very RARE is a very general category (and the biggest, not surprisingly!), just meaning anything that's just darn hard to find, especially affordably! (Examples: ALCO, Case, Cord, King, Keller, Leach, Continental Mark II, DeSoto Adventurer, el Morocco, '60 Edsel converible, Ruxton, Speedwell, Stephens, Stutz Bearcat, Sun, Tucker, etc.

Comments welcome!

 

A 1919 Dort made in Flint, Michiagan.

 

Hi, 2935Ford. The Dort was built from 1915 to 1924. That's over a decade. Are you saying this 1919 is extinct, ULTRA-rare, just pretty darn rare, or what?

The thread is about searching for cars/trucks that are extinct or quite seldom seen. Please see Posts 5,000 and 5,001, and tell us more about the car you're posting. Thanks, bro!

 

Harroun Motor Company

Yes, this automobile is related to Ray Harroun the automobile's founder and first winner of the Indianapolis 500.

Ray was the pilot and designer of the Marmon Wasp that he drove to a win at Indianapolis in 1911. The trim and aerodynamic Marmon had a rear view mirror instead of a mechanic running shotgun.

The Harroun Motor Car (1917, 1918, and ?) sported a valve in head engine and other advanced engineering features. Built in Wayne, Michigan.

Can anyone locate a living breating Harroun? Rare or extinct? Does anyone have any more information?

Read a bit more about Ray, his son, and his automobiles here.

http://www.freep.com/article/201105...irst-winner-remembered-by-son-100-years-later

Vintageride

 

From Coachbuilt:

The Harroun Motor Company (Ray Harroun, winner of the Indianapolis 500 in 1911) started auto production at this plant in 1916. The plant reached a peak production of 200 cars daily, but by 1917 the site was producing military ordinaces for the U.S. Army. Because of hardtimes Harroun Motor Company ceased production in 1921. Only 3000 autos where made. In 1924 Benjamin Gothfredson (B. 1863 Green Bay Wisc. D. Detroit MI 1/23/1938)produced auto and truck bodies at this site until 1927, when it ceased production. That same year (1927) Graham-Paige Motor company bought the plant and produced their line of autos until 1941. In 1947 Garwood Motor bought the plant and made Refuse Collection Trucks, along with other truck related parts. Garwood Motors stayed at this site until 1971, when they moved production to Tenn.

 

Well, I'll try to share some light on the Dixie Flyer history. Please excuse my English.

First let me explain something that is important to this story.

Until 1988 all licence plate numbers in Iceland consisted of one capital letter and a number that increased by the growing number of cars. The land was divided into areas for example Reykjavik had the capital letter R on their plates and for my home town Akureyri was the letter A. So the licence plate numbers in Akureyri were A 1, A 2, A 3 and so on. For example my father had the number A 2012 and I managed to get A 455 for my 1973 Firebird. Many people kept their numbers and moved them between cars when getting another one, while other just didn't care. But somehow the lowest numbers became highly sought after.

So lets start the story of our hero.
Back in 1919 a company here in Iceland called Espholin Co. imported 3 Dixie Flyers. I have no idea what happened to the other two but they are probably long gone. I don't have much information on what went on with the Dixie the first years until 1926, but I do know that it was the first taxi cab in Akureyri.

In 1926 a guy named Oskar Sigurgerisson in Akureyri bought it with the licence plate A 2 on it. He used it until around 1940 and then he parked it.

Now the story goes to 1948 when a man starts to realize that nobody has seen the licence plate A 2 for a long time and starts to inquire about it as he really wanted it for his car. He goes to the registration and the man who worked there saw that the Dixie had not been in the yearly check for many years and decides to unregister it and let the other guy have the A 2.

When Oskar found out, he was not happy about it. He complained about this in the registration but the man who unregistered it said to his defense that this car was too old and there were no parts for it available and it would never see the streets again. This all ended going to the court and in the meantime Oskar had an auto mechanic make it road worthy again. Oskar won the case in supreme court in 1953 and got his A 2 again. The Dixie changed hands soon after that to Oskars relative, Oskar Osberg. That Oskar took A 2 from the Dixie and put it on his every day cars until he died in 1995. The Dixie did not have much road time after the A 2 case but was used in the movie ("Land og synir") in 1980.

In 1984 Oskar sold the Dixie to Gisli Gudmundsson who is an auto dealer in Reykjavik and he had it for display on the dealership. A few years ago it sold again to a guy named Arngrimur Johannsson who is the owner today. He displayed the Dixie in an Aviation museum in Akureyri until recently. It is now located on a transportation museum at Ystafell which is located about half way from Akureyri to Husavik.

People that know this story well say that if it wasn't for this licence plate fight, the Dixie would probably not have survived.

The Dixie Flyer has now been reunited with the licence plate A 2.

Here are some '80's pictures:



I'll try to take some detail pictures later. I go to the museum about every other month at least.

Regards,
Johann
Iceland

 

And while we are at it, why not watch the Dixie Flyer video



Regards,
Johann
Iceland

 

That Harroun was named after Ray Harroun who won the first Indy 500. Those were built very near the Ford Wayne, Michigan plant.

 

Don't see Apperson on you list, built in Kokomo, Indiana. Here is a Jack Rabbit touring car I spoted on a tour out west on a Glidden tour in 2006.

 

Firehawk, your English is just fine, buddy. A HUGE THANKS for sharing the back story on the '19 Dixie Flyer! I seriously doubt that anyone in the U.S. would have ready access to such history!!! ONE OF THE BEST STORIES, IMHO, we've heard on this thread. Your posts have been as good as gold, and I think everyone will look forward to any more photos you can take and any other information you may run across.

Have to agree with you: If not for the high-demand license plate, that Dixie Flyer would probably have gone the way of the Dodo bird a long time ago! Since the Flyers are SO rare (3.5 known), I think it's fun to see the difference between the radiator shells on the '19 and Bernie J's restored '22 Firefly now owned and displayed at Kentucky Trailer (descendent of Kentucky Wagon Mfg. Co., which built it originally) in Louisville Kentucky.



'19 Dixie Flyer in the Transportation Museum, Ystafell, Iceland




'22 Dixie Flyer Firefly. I understand it is currently being displayed at the AACA museum in Louisville while Kentucky Trailer creates a permanent display area in its reception area. And so, this spring the car will take up permanent residence at the same place where it was born 89 years ago!



Badge posted on AACA by Flyer owner/restorer "OldCar"
of suburban Melbourne, Australia.

 

The Dixie Flyer in Louisville has an incredible story too.

It was a rescue from the abyss by "Old Car". A restoration with much love and attention to all the details.

Here is a photo of it prior to initiating restoration.

Read more here.
http://forums.aaca.org/f190/dixie-flyer-firefly-speedster-photographs-252653.html

Vintageride

 

Yeah! And NOW all this makes me want to know something about the remaining ONE Dixie, the one that's in Texas! We've got a tourer and a sport roadster -- just WHAT is the runner in Texas???

It's ALSO an incredible statement about early attitudes toward automobiles, COUPLED, secondarily, with the impact of World War II scrap drives. Kentucky Wagon made Dixie Flyers for at least a decade, yet THREE (and one-half) are ALL we have left today?!?!?? WOW.

 

Don't know why things seem to work this way. You search for months, on and off, all over the web. Then you finally get the right combo of key words -- I guess! LOL. I'd searched for info on the Dixie Flyer in Texas and come up dry. I just tried again, and bingo, a clue.

In a March 30, 2010, post on Pre-War Car, a gentleman in Weatherford, Texas, stated that he's the one with the '20 tourer, in nice running condition. This was apparently when Bernie Jacobson was still into his three-year restoration of the '22 Firefly, and the fella was offering to send pix and advice, for which Bernie had broadcast pleas everywhere.

I just sent him an excited email, SO, MAYBE we could assemble photos of ALL THREE extant Dixie Flyers on this thread. BUT, at least we know WHERE the third one is located! That would mean a '19, a '20 and a '22 in two body styles and with Lycoming and Herschell-Spillman plants. Yow!

BTW, here's the 'net link I found, should anybody wish to see more details:

The very last surviving Dixie Flyer? (UPDATE II:third one ...
www.prewarcar.com/magazine/previous-features/the-very-last-surv...

 

Great information, and I enjoyed the video too.

(Not HAMB friendly, but, I love clips of the Formula Off Road Racing in Iceland).

 

Jimi,

This may be from the second link you posted, apologies if it is, but I only get "404 error" when I try to access it (the first link worked fine).

I came across this photo about a week ago. It's been a hectic week for me and somehow I didn't take note of how to get back to it. Your post and references jogged my memory........





http://www.prewarcar.com/my-prewarcar/spot-a-pre-war-car/

 

Interesting how the winshield posts changed from '19 to '20, same body style. Needs a good resto, but he's right: It's a pretty complete Dixie!

 

I found this INTERESTING pic (looks like an Auburn to me) while searching for Ray Harroun info and pics. ANYBODY know the STORY on this Diesel car? (And why would it appear in an Harroun search? A connection?)