History What was the FIRST chopped 1949-50 MERCURY

Jeff, I mentioned this in another thread as well. It could very well be possible that George had a few copies of Marcia's photos of Sam chopping Jerry's Mercury (the once used in the Barris Technique books) and he used them thinking (perhaps wishful thinking) it was his brother chopping his Mercury.
In the Barris Book it could have been very well Sam's Mercury, if you did not look very close. and most people only started to look very close to those photos in the Barris book after the Sacramento Autorama, and after that some of those photos where posted on the HAMB. So we really needed more of Marcia Campbell's photos to proof the Merc in the Barris books where not Sam's. George might not have had access to the whole album during the production of the books.

I'm not saying this is the way it happened... but it could be. A lot of people thought the photos where of the Sam Barris Merc.. so why not George.

In any event, this does not proof anything.

 

Yep makes sense and I do know they quite often took buildings,powerlines and othe detractors out of photos to clean them up.

 

Does anyone know what months Sam and George were born in? It might help narrow down the time the article was put together as they are listed as 24 and 25. They were born in 24 and 26 respectively so we might be able to figure out roughly when the interview was done by their month of birth. It won't be precise but it might narrow it down to the beginning or middle of the year.

 

For those that were asking about the license plate issues. 1947 was the last new plate for the 1940's, 48 and 49 used the 47 plate with a metal tag for the year. 1950 used the 47 plate with a 50 tag bolted to it. 1951 was a new plate that was used with a metal tag until 1956 when the next new plate came out.
Normally when new plates were issued, they were sent out to replace the old ones that were on the car.

 

Some body put sams merc next to the "stock "one by the white one

to accurate scale
i know the plates are dif ... Could any other stuff match?


Tires , hubcaps , thingie hangin from rear view mirror ,hood edge gap ???

 

I always have these two images taken from www.worldlicenseplates.com handy on my desktop. These are great for reference the old Californian Custom Cars, and date the photos.

The 1940's



And the 1950's

 

Sam's a 1949 Mercury. The "stock" one in the photo you are referring to is a 1950 Model. It has - among other things - a different dash and rear window compared to Sam's. Sam would not back date those on his car!

 

Rik,I know you are saying this a possibility but I dont agree.I have never seen an interview or read anything where George talks about his brothers car being cruised around as a mild custom before it went under the knife.Jerrys merc had quite a bit of work done to it already in the photos when they were getting ready and when they did chop the car.Sams car wasnt done in stages like Jerrys and if it was there is no way that nobody would have not taken any pictures of Sams car therefore......... There is no way that George would have looked at those photos and confused Sams car with Jerrys car !! Not a chance,you can see the modified grill and frenched lights etc right when u looked at the pictures.I dont believe for one second George confused the 2 cars.The antenna tells a whole lot when it comes to this story.

 

Perhaps your right... but don't forget that we are really studying these photos like it is art. But for the guys who built them back then they where just cars that where customized.. a way of making a living. We really look very different at these photos than George or who ever put those book together did.

 

When u look at how rough this looks and the flow,it is very hard to believe that they would have done a roof that looked like this AFTER they did the nice smooth graceful flowing roof on Sams mercury.I dont know .....I always thought people did better on their second attempts then they did on their first ones but hey...... maybe the 49 merc is the rare acception.

 

Good point.. but again this can be interpreted in more than one way.
Perhaps Jerry saw Sam's straight B-Pillars and wanted to experiment and go with slanted and reshaped pillars to make it different from Sam's.
Again, I'm not saying Sam's was done first... but the photo above is still no proof Jerry's was done first. Right now my vote goes out to Jerry... but as said before. There is no proof, and to many of the suggestions to "proof" it can be interpreted in many ways.

Another nice thing in this photo is the Snooky Janich 1941 Ford in the background.
I think this is when the car got redone with the new taillights set into the rear fenders.
Both Snooky's and Jerry's Merc appeared in primer at the Montebello Tent show.

 

It sure is a good thing they did Sams first and learned the ropes because this one looks like it went smooth and easy just the way they planned,its good they worked out all the bugs on Sams car first.

Looks pretty dark in the shop when you look at the window in the background and also this was shot with a pretty strong flash meaning it looks like this shot might of been taken in a late night at the shop.Like I said earlier Jerry worked there and he is in a couple of the work pictures so its not like they just worked on his car like a regular customer.

 

Another thing that makes me laugh is .... With Sams car being the first one they chopped they sure did go all out didnt they..... I mean it has alot of work..... all the shaving,the chopped roof,the grill,the frenched lights and .... full fadeaway and cadillac sidetrim??? So they did ALL of that on the first chopped merc leaving not much of anything stock except bumpers maybe?? Then they decide to do Jerrys car after Sams but they leave all of that stock trim,stock grill.So on the second car they did, it has more stock features and resembles something closer to the original then the first merc they did????? That sure does seem backwords to me but like I have said before....these two 49 mercs were the acception in more ways then one. After doing a full custom like Sams who wouldnt want to go backwards and make your next custom look closer to stock?????

 

And we all know how much Sam loved to take pictures next to cars he recently completed.George says in his book"Sam stands proudly by Jerrys white primered ride". He is almost smiling I wonder why the second merc he chopped made him proud (according to George) enough to let someone take a picture of him next to it in primer.Being the second one cut this car must of had sentimental meaning to Sam.

 

Jeff... Makes sense... from one point of view. But how do you explain the chopped but not radical Customs after the Hirohata Mercury?
This is also a matter of personal taste of the cars owner, isn't it?
Perhaps Jerry was a bit more old fashion than Sam. He did have the old fashion single bar flippers on his car in the PS feature, while the mild custom 1950 Merc next to him ran Sombrero's at that time. Perhaps Jerry liked the look of the stock side trim and the dip in the doors better than what Sam did on his Merc.

 

Looks like the same late night at the shop with not many people around.That is Jerry helping Sam right here.I wonder if they were using the same methods that Sam used when he chopped his 49.

 

Jeff, why are your taking what George is telling about this photo so seriously. While he also used photos of Jerry's car and told in the same series of books that those where of Sam's Merc?

 

Common Jeff... there is no need to be cynical here.
We are trying to figure this out. And this is not helping!

Perhaps somebody can call Jesse Lopez. He was around the shop a lot during those days. In one of the photos Marcia took we can see his car in the background with Jerry's un chopped merc in the foreground.

 

Im just quoting George,I think it must be something that made Sam take this picture next to this car.To me he looks a little proud of the car.

 

Calling Jesse I dont think will help much,I dont think nobody will believe him.I have Jack Stewart on video and it hasnt made a difference.

Cynical....Rik I really dont think so.Im just mentioning the stuff that we do know and using it from a perspective of someone who believes that Jerrys was cut after Sams car.It just doesnt seem to make a whole lot of sense when it is worded this way.

 

To answer your first question about the chopped but not radical customs. I cant think of one merc that was as stock as Jerrys(white version) after the Hirohata merc.They might not been as radical as the Hirohata but they werent as stock as Jerrys merc.I might be wrong on this one,its getting very late.

 

Jeff you can't have it both ways. You can't say Geroge intentionally lied about part of the story and insist that he not be believed because of it and then insist that what he said be taken as the gospel truth to prove another aspect. It is inconsistencies in what you want us to believe like this that hurt the credibility of this side of the debate.

 

Ok K13 ,You are right,I cant have it both ways.I was just quoting George.To me him misquoting a reason why Sam took a picture and misquoting a car that was his brothers or not are two totally different worlds but thats ok,I shouldn't of wrote it.

I really thought there would be plenty more arguments from you on my other posts.I guess if I wouldnt of wrote the bit about Sams picture then maybe the rest made some sense.The reason I wrote that is because I think Sam looks a little proud and I dont see another reason why he would of taken the picture next to his second chopped merc.

 

Hurt the credibility?? Look at my post's from last night and tell me how hurt that side of the debate really is besides the picture of Sam quote. There sure are some strong points there........ like Jerrys roof looking like a rough trial run compared to Sams and a couple more good points about the order of things.There are some pretty good points that I posted last night and im hearing feedback about misquoting a pic of Sam next to a car?

These are all strong points that I listed and until we have a time machine and go back there will always be a couple on here that find any reason to try and argue this no matter how many good points are brought up.Like Rik posted last night about George getting mixed up when doing the books ? WOW! He has never claimed that Sams car was a mild custom but anyone that see's those pics can tell that Jerrys car is not a virgin,so to say he was mixed up is reaching very far to keep this argument going.I have written what needs to be written for Jerrys merc and the readers can decide and thats pretty much the end of it from my part.

 

Jeff you make very good points on alot of things in your arguement it is the inconsitencies that throw the wrench into the works for me.

Pictures are pictures. Unless there are definitive dates associated to them they can be made to support any point of view. Your points on them are very valid to support the point of view that Jerry's car was done first but as Rik mentioned someone trying to prove another point of view could come along and point out a bunch of things that would support their angle of the story.

To me the picture of Sam looks like a guy who was sick and tired of his brother hassling him about pictures so, as was mentioned in the Oakland thread, he slapped his hand on the fender, not even a smile on his face, and said take the picture. Like I said pictures can be made to tell any story you want.

 

Good read until it became a petty internet forum fight. I personally always figured Quesnels Merc to have been the first, basically for nothing else other than I think the roof came out completely botched, and nothing, especially no Merc, since did. It always struck me as the dry run on a new bodystyle.

 

I picked that one as an example. The point is you can't play both sides. It like the fact that you quoted Jerry as saying that Sam did straight posts because the angle posts were so hard to do and then say that the angle post chop helps prove the car was chopped first as it is an easier chop to perform.

 

No lie, Im already on my second tub of popcorn!!! Keep it comin!

 

This pretty much covers what I was thinking too.

Also I wanted to say thanks to Rik, I always enjoy the stuff you post and this thread is another example of the cool stuff you dig up.

 

If there are no photos of Sam's car in-progress, then I do not see how you can justly make this comparison? Sam's in-progress car may very well have looked just as rough at a similar point in the build. It may have even had a big 'ol goof in it that had to be re-done. Who knows?...we don't - because there are apparently no photos of that. Maybe that is why there are no photos, maybe Sam didn't want us to see his mistake and tore them up? I really doubt that, but hey, as long as we're speculating...let's also throw that in as 'proof' that Sam f'd up his car.

And the point about Jerry's being more stock, or more simple, or more crude, as a proof-of-timeline holds no water, because it is assuming that each car in progression ALWAYS became more radical and more refined, which of course is not always the case.

Sam had the eye and talent to make his car as nice as he wanted to, wether it was the first chopped or the 90th chopped.

I don't think many of us really doubt that Jerry's may very well have been first.
But your arguments are not based on proof, just conjecture and if that is all you can come up with, then I think (if this was a courtroom) you would lose your case.

You are just trying to read way too much into photos that were not really intended to be historical proof as much as they were just guys randomly taking photos of working on their cars. They had no idea people would even be interested another 2 years down the road, let alone 60.

It would be similar to me going back through my box of photos of when I built my car and trying to point out details that proved I chopped it before a friend of mine chopped his. "look at the smile on my face - I must have been first!" But unless I had a photo of my car chopped in the foreground with his unchopped in the background (or something else that showed a certain date), it would be really tough to prove just from that collection of random photos, because when I took them, I was not looking for a way to prove a timeline. I was just taking photos of my project and I feel that is likely what these guys were doing.