History What was the FIRST chopped 1949-50 MERCURY

Like I said before, talk to 3-4 oldtimers and find out what they all say.

At this point if Jerry, who is living, says his car was chopped first, I believe him. Now if someone asks George and he disagrees, he's the one that folks are less likely to believe since he's got a reputation for sometimes taking too much credit. (that I've read - George vs. Dean stuff).

Also, based on the stuff you guys have talked about Sam's car was in paint first.

I don't know Jerry but I'd love for someone (even me) to call him up and write down his oral history of the early Merc's. I don't care who's car was chopped first, I'd just like to talk to someone who is a part of history of these wonderful customs. Better yet, take a flip cam and tape him in person. Ask him if he knew the other Merc guys, and who inspired who, and did they hang out..etc.

 

I'll go with Jack Stewart on this one. mind like a steel trap.

 

Great thread folks!
it would have been great to get to the bottom of this "mystery". Some more proofs would have been great though. For me a smile on Sam's face ain't worth much...

I'm twisting my mind trying to find some clues or things to investigate. I have nothing important to contribute with yet, but on a pretty far fetched search trying to find out more info on Bobby Orr (the man who bought Sam's Merc), and maybe trying to find out when he bought the car, I found an old newspaper clipping from the Burlington Hawk-Eye Gazette, May 23, 1956, about a Bobby Orr in Iowa being killed in a car accident. As Tommy Lee bought the car in 1957, chances are that it is the same guy. OK, sorry about the off topic info. Just thought it would be interesting to share.

 

OK!! The way the post were done is a mystery. To me on Jerry's car. the reason they slanted them is cause the chop was a lot. If they would of left the post straight. It would of made that rear quarter window look really small and out of proposition. have someone photoshop a straight post on Jerry's car. Look how wrong it looks. Just my thoughts on the post issue.

 

Like someone said already, Jerry's chop is different than Sam's, and Sam's looks better. I don't think they'd cut Sam's and then do Jerry's, cuz the latter is not a popular look.

 

Ok I found the talk of how Sam would have learned from Jerry's chop and would have learned how to do his better a neat angle so I started looking at some pictures and found some interesting things. None of this proves anything I just found it interesting.

First is the side picture of Jerry's car notice the cut above the quarter window to relieve stress in the top to try and achieve some flow.


Next a picture of Sam's car in bare metal during its restoration. It is hard to see but I have circled an area above the quarter window that appears to be lead work in the same spot Jerry's car was cut.


Now here is a picture of the Sonzogni Merc. It is the only other in progress pictures of a Merc chop with posts that the Barris' did. Notice the longer cuts above the rear window that run length wise on the car.



What is interesting about this is this tends to be the way most people chop a Merc if they are not adding new panels. I know this as I did a shit load of research before I started the slow moving chop of my Merc. I have attached three examples of Merc's chopped in this fashion one from John Aiello, one from Paul Bragg and one from Slddmatt.






It is obvious that Jerry's car was not done this way and it also appears that Sam's was not done this way looking at the leaded area above his rear window as it doesn't seem to extend forward enough. Regardless of which car was cut first it looks like they were both chopped using the same technique, a technique that seemed to have been given up and improved on a least one later build at the Barris shop. Maybe the two cars were being chopped simultaneously and nothing much was learned about the chopping technique from either car.

Like I said nothing that proves anything just stuff I found interesting.

As per usual I stole all of the images from Rik's amazing archive. Thanks Rik!!

 

Very interesting that the leadwork showing during the resto of Sam's car is in nearly indentical spots to Jerry's.
It does stand to reason though that they would have been chopped very similarly since they were done at virtually the same time, by the same guy. You wouldn't think his technique would change drastically over such a short period of time.
Nice research work.
And to you too Superfleye, interesting the timing of that accident around the same time as sale of the car.
I'm too lazy to research...I just amuse myself critiquing other's detective work, ha, ha

 

i was looking at Jerry's pictures on RIK's site. there is something i just noticed. don't know if it was brought up or not.

In the 1st photo there they are posing for the soon to be chopped mercury. There is some kind of dark coloring on the ground. To me it looks like it could be some mud or maybe fresh asphalt on the ground.

2nd photo shows the same darkness on the ground. someone is laying next to Jerry's unchopped mercury. also in the photo the license plate is from 1951. this plate might have been given out late 1950, but i don't know for sure how the DMV did things back then.

3rd photo is a copy of Pat Ganahl's list (2001). after seeing the license plate on a unchopped mercury and Pat Ganahl's list. it seems kinda hard to say was Jerry's car chopped first.

Also the car in both pictures looks to be tilted at the same angle. the car looks to be leaning towards the driver side.

 

No I wouldn't expect it to change a lot but if you were going to try and improve the flow of the chop from one car to the next that change in cuts would be logical progression and it didn't happen. At some point the "next car" chopped would have to show that progression regardless of the time elaspe between jobs.

To me that means these cars were chopped SO CLOSE together that Sam didn't have a chance to rethink his technique regardless of which was first or if they were possibly being worked on at the same time.

 

Very interesting indeed. The process in chopping these sure have changed from the first couple don by Barris. And it is interesting to see the similarities in bare metal between Sam's and Jerry's Merc.
Now it would be really interesting to see hoe the Chops where performed by the Ayala's.

I'm not totally sure Sam actually worked on the top of Frank Sonzogni's Merc. Most of the in progress photos of that car Frank did all the metal work himself. But of course he would have been guided by Sam.

 

It would be interesting to see how the Ayala's did it.

I also find it interesting that in these discussions it comes across (at least to me) that the Barris' chopped a shitoad of these cars but the above list really shows how few were done that seemed to hold any real significance. There are only 5 non convertible two doors on the list that were chopped at the Barris shop and two of them are hardtops. It's not like it appears that Sam had the chance to hone his chopping technique on Merc after Merc.

 

I have a couple of small snapshots of the Wally Welch in bare metal during its restoration... but it does not really show much on how it was done.

 

That last photo looks like the length wise cut on the roof is present right above the quarter window starting at the upper right corner of whatever is stuck to the c pillar. You can kind of see it on the left side of the second picture as well. There is definitely no indication of the cut closer to the B pillar that Sam did on both his and Jerry's car.

 

If anyone thinks that this white merc's roof flows any better or the same as Sams car then you better get your eyes checked or study roofs a little more.

 

No one made any mention of that at all until right now.

 

Great read, thanx guys..

 

Ya I was wondering why it wasnt brought up......just talk of how the 2 cars were chopped the same way.But after really lookin at them close I guess they do have the same flow.:rolleyes

 

Jeff, in the Jesse Lopez thread you mentioned you talked to Jesse tonight.

Did you ask him about Sam's and Jerry's Mercs... What did he say about it?

 

That in progress pic is wild, shows that instead of moving the entire quarter window back, slicing through the roof, they cut it halfway and added a piece, most likely from another Merc roof. The good ol days of plentiful resources. That isnt the way most folks do it, it seems very hard, and kind of "figuring it out as you go". Id bet on Sams Merc they slid the entire quarter window section of roof back in one piece.

 

thanks guys for the history lesson and the pics! I love when any one is so dialed on something that they see differences that most cant!!!

 

Sam had a straight post so there was no need to lengthen the top of the window as there was with Jerry's.

 

Well guys I am going to add more fuel to the fire.

The license plate thing has come up a couple of times in discussing this so I thought I would see if I could find out some history on license plates in California. Not an easy thing to do but I did find a license plate collectors group online and posted the question as to when the 1951 license plate were issued by the DMV in California and if they plate numbers could be traced to a issue date.

No one could give a 100% assurance that this was the case but the general consensus seems to be that it is not believed that any 1951 license plates were issued in 1950 and if they were it would have been in late December. More likely they would have been issued in January 1951. Numbers were not rolled over from previous plates and the plates were a mass roll out so the previous system that saw specific lettered plates go to specific areas in California in the past did not seem to pertain to the 1951 plates making it difficult to trace issue dates and locations.

If this is indeed true the unchopped picture of Jerry's car with the 1951 plates would have been taken at best in late December 1950 and more likely January of 1951. Again this is not definitive proof of anything but one would think that for Sam's car to have been complete for the Roadster show at the end of February it would have had to have been started at virtually the same time as Jerry's. We could literally be talking about days or weeks of difference here.

 

Very interesting! Thanks for looking into that angle.

 

Little bit of an update to the above plate information. I have now been told that that 1951 plates were definitely not available in 1950. The 1947 based plate expired on Dec 31st and people had from January 1st until February 4th to obtain the new plate in 1951. I was told these dates were written in the California DMV codes so they are pretty indisputable. Also told there are no record available to trace actual issue date of Jerry's plate in the picture of his unchopped car.

This meant that the picture was taken no earlier than the beginning of January. The dates are definitely narrowing for Jerry's car to have been chopped first.

 

The timeline seems to be narrowing down. It would seem that in order for Sams car to make it to the Oakland show in Feb. 1951, he would have had to have been fairly far along with his car by the time Jerrys was chopped, whether Sam had chopped his yet or not. Theres a big difference between chopping a top and getting the car in primer compared to getting a car fully modified and painted. Those fadeaways alone were a tremendous amount of work!

Something else to add, although Im not sure how much bearing it will have, Sams car was a very early 49 model. I was fortunate to have been involved in the body and paint restoration of Sams car. Part of the restoration required us to remove later model latches that had been installed at some point. When we removed plates that had been welded in the jambs, we found factory reliefs for dovetails, something that was only found on early cars.

Perhaps Sam had bought one of the first Mercurys new, started customizing it, but being a shop owner he had to put it on the back burner once in awhile to concentrate on customers cars and keep the shop going? He may have had a partially finished chop when Jerrys was cut. We may never know.

Either way, Sams car first, Jerrys car first,maybe another car was first, Sam was the main talent behind both of these cars. The fact is Sam was a bad ass. By 1951 he had chopped a bunch of cars, many more complex then these Mercurys. He was a Ruler!

 

pictures= negatives = dated during processing

who has the negatives ?
who has the original prints ?

problem then is how long were they in the camera before developing

how come cameras did not have the date /time stamp in 1950...51

 

Marcia Campbell most likely had the original negatives, so those are more than likely gone for ever.

The quesnel chop book is currently at the Barris shop... So Evel, please take a look at the back side of those photos and see if there is a date on them.

 

great
the magazine photos may be in a archive somewhere too
photgraphed by ?
taken?
month issued?

the popular science archive must be organized and digitized ... right?

FRIEBERGER JUST HAD THE PETERSON /HOTROD ARCHIVE DIGITZED 1949-?... YOOOHOOO A LITTLE HELP OL PAL.....

the whole timeline -production time for magazine arrticles would also be a helpful clue .

GEEZ YA KNOW HOW IT GOES
ARTICLE TURNED IN .ROUGH DRAFT . SENT BACK REWRITTEN AFEW TIMES ..
-CORRECTED ... PASTED UP . ISSUE DATES PICKED ..BLAH ,BLAH BLAH HITS THE STANDS ..

anyone have the dates of shipment/mailing of these issues ?

i collect lots of early magazines car related ...i will watch for these popular science issues

when does the official HAMB vote get under way?

if we all decide here its then historical fact right!

guess my vote is it was "first cut " at the Barris shop completion "day" still debated

 

i never took the time to notice how far forward Jerrys backlite was.