History We ALL Love a DARE! PIX of TRULY Extinct Makes?

From Allpar.com

Indianapolis was always on Cummins’ mind. He returned to the Memorial Day Classic in 1934 with two cars, built to house his diesels. For the 1934 Indy race, only 15 gallons of fuel could be carried in the car, and only 45 gallons were allowed for the entire race, although two cycle diesels were allowed 55 gallons.
For the two years that Clessie had not been to the race, an in-house debate had raged over the advantages of two cycle diesels. For his part, Clessie had some healthy skepticism; up to that date, the most engines, including his own, used the Otto four stroke cycle. Two strokes were difficult to keep lubricated, and smoked pretty heavily. Diesel tended to make the smoking worse. Still, GM was rumored to be developing a two-stroke diesel.
To settle the issue, Clessie built a two cycle and a four cycle racing diesel, again having Duesenberg build two chassis. Two 364 cubic inch engines were made, built from aluminum and supercharged. Both cars qualified, with the 4 cycle in 22nd starting place, and the two stroke in 29th place. The 4 cycle made it to lap 81, driver Dave Evans blew the transmission on leaving the pits. A short time later, the two cycle came in, and the driver had burned his foot on the hot transmission casing. Evans jumped in the car for relief. For the rest of the race, the two cycle ran hot, blew clouds of grayish blue smoke, and churned its way through the field. Evans brought the car home in 12th place. It remains the highest finish for a diesel.
The cars were brought into the garage area. As the two cycle began to cool, unmistakable sounds of metal bonding itself to other metal were heard. The pistons, and other components, had literally melted into the sides of the block, seizing the engine up forever. Cummins was quietly furious. He slammed the garage doors, and he and another mechanic removed it from the car. It was loaded into the back of a truck. During the evening trip back to Columbus, a stop was made on a bridge over the White River. Cummins and two other men pitched the two cycle engine into the deepest part of the river below. Nothing was said. No more discussion about two cycle diesels occurred at Cummins. That policy remains in place to this day

 

Grahame, THAT is one INTERESTING piece of auto history on the British
Galloway! It sounds as though the venture was a pretty grand attempt,
coming just as the "suffragette" movement had finally gained ground
following WWI.








Above photo THANKS to FlickR, below THANKS to dlcowgirl. Sorry so large!
But, the details in this pic practically scream. And the car is awesome.

 

McCue (aka McCue-Hartford) EXTINCT??? My bet is YES. Let's ask SunRoofCord if the HCCA manual lists any survivors.

But I'd think takers would be few for a pretty conventionally made car at from $2,250 to $2,750 in 1910. To me, it resembles a Model T (only bigger engine at 318-CID). Wouldn't that kind of dough buy TWO Fords in 1910???

 

Is the 11 in NY a roadster? if so it and the 11 in Michigan belonged to a family friend from Guelph Ont. He had both real low mileage cars for about 25 yrs. The touring came from Nova Scotia and the roadster from Collingwood Ont. both were grey bodies with black fenders and trim. I thought I had pictures but cannot find them. The roadster was a great looking car and I sat in it many times as it was in our museum for about 10 yrs. The touring went to a museum in Mich. and the roadster to Long Island if I remember correctly. The only place it said Cutting was on the sill plate when you opened the door. I saw a speedster yellow I think and from Fla. I think. The only 3 I have ever seen.

I have not gone through this whole thead but are there any Henderson cars?

Vern

 

Vern, given your personal knowledge presented here, I think the answer is YES, the 1911 Cutting on Long Island would probably be a roadster. We can also check with Bob (37Kid) who saw it years ago there and provided the tip to us on this thread of its existence. IF I'm not mistaken, I think PIX of the existing Cuttings came up with in the last few months; if you use the SEARCH function at the top of the page, you can check into it. Cutting was a tough make to track, but we kept the name out there, and pieces of the puzzle gradually came in! What we thought might be EXTINCT turned out eventually to have three survivors. Stuff like THAT makes all the headaches and waiting worthwhile on this thread, IMO!

 

This post showed up on the Hemming's site:


Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Hi,

I work for King Arthur Flour in Norwich Vt. The company moved from Boston to Norwich in the 90's. My company had a 1927 calli0pe truck. There was a knight on a black hourse on the back of the truck. The truck was driven through the streets of NY and Boston with the callipe playing to draw attention to King Arthur Flour products. The truck was manufactured by Spillman Enginering in North Tonawonda NY. The truck may have had a Spillman engine in it. We are now a employee owned company and we are trying to locate this unique truck so we can restore the truck. I have pictures of this vehicle. I thought that anybody looking through salvage yards or old barns may have seen this unique truck. I can be reached at 802-359-2391 cell.

Thanks,

Kim Lussier </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

A Spillman Truck????
That's a new one on me.
Spillman engine maybe, Calliope sure.
But an entire truck?

this could be something new as I have never heard of such a thing.
I'd love to see pictures.

 

My thread search indicated that we've only MENTIONED the Henderson make, Verne. I found no pix. SO, it was a good one for you to pose for examination! Thanks!

In a quick search of an hour or two, I found out From Nancy DeWitt at the Fountainhead Museum in Fairbanks, Alaska, that there are four, maybe five, Henderson automobiles still accounted for --SO, we are talking the ULTRA-RARE category of our thread! The Fountainhead very recently acquired what may be the ONLY six-cylinder Henderson in existence -- NICE 1913 roadster, too!!! Nancy had also personally visited a private collection in SoCal, and there's a beautifully restored "opera coupe" there. SO, TWO very exciting cars.

Nancy mentioned two other known Hendersons, plus a lead on one in Washington state. SO, everybody be on the watch!!!

 

Officially, Henderson automobiles were built in Indianapolis from 1912 through 1915,
though it seems few if any got out the door in '12 and the company was apparently winding
down by 1915. The source I saw indicated that Henderson offered three engines during
their run, including a six. The make could be pricey, ranging from $1,400 all the way to
$2,800.



This is the Henderson opera coupe Nancy DeWitt got to see in Nov. '09 in the private collection
of Mr. Bill Evans. She said this the fourth surviving Henderson automobile she's aware of, plus
the Washington lead.


I really can't say enough glowing things about the Fountainhead Museum. NOTE! This is a
museum that is only coming up on its second anniversary in June '11! Yet they already are
custodians and conservators of numerous very rare cars, PLUS a number of one-of-a-kind
survivors. In my brief experience, the Fountainhead seems to have the highest genuine
excitement level of any museum I've communicated with. Their highly motivated corps in-
cludes benefactors, staff, docents, volunteers and more.

Here's a short list exemplifying my above point:

1898 Hay & Hotchkiss
1899 Hertel
1901 Rochester steam
1905 Sheldon
1906 Compound
1910 Everitt
1914 Woods Mobilette
1914 Duplex 4WD flatbed
1917 Owen Magnetic
1921 Heine-Velox
1920 Argonne

 

Post #5077 - photo (I can't ID the truck, but, it's there) and link.

 

I just checked the HCCA listing for the New York owner of the 1911 Cutting that is believed to be a roadster. Interestingly, he lists 2 Cutting's and 3 Henderson's along with several other cars. I think that would make 4 Cutting's if he actually does have 2. I almost wonder if some of the cars are actually listed more then once. 3 1910 Elmore's seems odd but you never know.

There is no email listed but I do have a phone number if somebody wants to call this fellow. Just send me a PM. He's in Mattiluck N.Y. if anybody wants to see if they can go visit him and take pictures of his cars. I almost wonder if some of the cars are actually listed more then once. 3 1910 Elmore's seems odd but you never know


His listing reads;

1901 Rochester

1902 Union

1905 Binford

1907 Cartercar

1908 Bailey

1910 Elmore #1

1910 Elmore #2

1910 Elmore #3

1910 Packard

1910 Packard #2

1910 Parry

1911 Cutting

1911 Cutting #2

1913 Henderson

1913 Henderson #2

1914 Grant Roadster

1914 Henderson

1914 Moline-Knight

1914 Moline Knight 50 Touring

1914 Woods Mobilette

 

Besides the 3 Henderson's listed in the above post, The HCCA membership directory lists the following Henderson's for a total of 9;

1913 in Washington

1913 Coupe in California

1913 44 Roadster in Alaska

1913 56 Deluxe Touring in California

1913 B Motorcycle in Canada

1913 Special Midget Racer in Connecticut

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McCue (aka McCue-Hartford) EXTINCT??? My bet is YES. Let's ask SunRoofCord if the HCCA manual lists any survivors.

None listed but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist somewhere although it is highly unlikely.

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But I'd think takers would be few for a pretty conventionally made car at from $2,250 to $2,750 in 1910. To me, it resembles a Model T (only bigger engine at 318-CID). Wouldn't that kind of dough buy TWO Fords in 1910???

Without checking the actual price that a 1910 Model "T" Ford sold for new, I would say that kind of money would of bought at least 4 to 5 of them.

 

Would that be the Henderson of motorcycle fame, I wonder?

 

I do not believe so.

From: Henderson Motorcycle Company

http://www.hendersonmotorcycle.com/History 1911.htm

In October 1911 the Henderson Motorcycle Co, 268 Jefferson Ave., Detroit, Michigan announced a new 4-cylinder, 56 cubic inches, 7 H.P. motorcycle. 25 were to be ready for sale at $325 from January 1, 1912 with the expectation of producing 1,000 machines for the year. The brainchild of William G. Henderson (in partnership with his brother Tom W. Henderson) was the third 4-cylinder motorcycle to be manufactured in America. One of its most innovative features was the inclusion of a folding hand crank for easy starting. The new Henderson proved to be a very desirable machine.

 

Yeah, I'm with the Maniac. Some years separate the two Henderson companies, plus cities and key players. But, I think the motorcycles are pretty keen!

But, as SunRoof said, strange things turn up some times, so we could be surprised when/if somebody steps up with some great tidbit.

AND, speaking of SunRoofCord, THANKS, Jim, for looking into those makes! Myself, I lean toward thinking (as you hinted at) that some of the individual autos are listed more than one place, due to changes in ownership -- and other reasons, too.

The recent discussion of the '20 Argonne in Alaska which, quite apparently, was LONG though to be a Biddle is a great example of how TOUGH it is sometimes to differentiate one specimen from another.

Now, that's not to CONCLUDE anything at all with regard to any of the makes discussed, not at all. It's just that this is TRULY a significant issue, very often. I'm just late to the party in RECOGNIZING that issue! LOL. Shee, I love this search, EVEN though new levels of complexity seem to crop up from time to time!

Thanks, all!

 

BTW, out of curiosity, I looked up what $2,500 in 1913 bucks would buy in a car TODAY. Over $56,000!

 

A new Ford T roadster was about $500 in 1913 (the most expensive model was the town car at $750-800). The Standard Catalog suggests that the Henderson car and motorcycle were built by the same family but does give specifics.

 

Was at the Buffalo Transportation Museum on Sundfay for the "Blessingh of Cars" and took a picture of this. Sign says "1899 Horseless Carriage".

No brand name, no manufacturer, a one off.......
Basically, a carriage with an attached motor.
But then again, that's how it all started.

 

My question was off the top of my head, and I didn't look it up. According to my souces Henderson (car) was 1912-1915; Henderson (motorcycle) was 1911-1931.

David Burgess-Wise (ed.), The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Automobiles: "'More car for less money' was the slogan of this Indianapolis-built 4.6-litre four with electric lighting and starting. The sons of the company's founder made the famous Henderson four-cylinder motorcycle." Likewise Erwin Tragatsch (ed.), The New Illustrated Encyclopedia of Motorcycles: "A famous four-cylinder design by William 'Bill' Henderson, whose father built Henderson cars." The two books are part of the same series and presumably represent the same level of historical rigour, or otherwise ...

 

So! A family tie after all! Plus a temporal overlap (when my source said years between the two companies). Oh, well, finding the facts is why we're here. LOL

 

Whoah, not so fast there.

In looking for more info on Henderson autos, I ran onto an 11/08 article by AACA's Craig Fitzgerald which seems to dispell any connection between the Henderson car company and the Henderson motorcycle maker.

Seems that Henderson motorocycles had a link to Winton, not Henderson autos. Here is a very brief, but explicit excerpt from Craig's article, "The 1912 Henderson Model A: Fastest Motorcycle in the World":

"October, 1911. From the imposing structure on 268 Jefferson Avenue, Detroit, Michigan, came the announcement of a brand-new motorcycle, from a brand-new company. Henderson would be building a 56-cu.in., 7hp, four-cylinder motorcycle.

"The early Henderson motorcycle company was the construction of brothers William G. and Thomas Henderson. The Winton Motor Car Company figured heavily in the history of the brand. The boys' father was a vice president with the company, and brother Thomas worked there as a sales manager. Ten years prior, Dr. Horatio Nelson Jackson had driven a Winton from San Francisco, California, to New York City, becoming the first person to cross the United States by motor car. The attention brought to the brand would figure heavily in Henderson history within a year following the production of the first 25 Model As."

Great article, WELL worth a full read! There are several color photos of the subject bike, too. There's even a link to a YouTube audio/video of the machine running, to wit: www.youtube.com/watch?v=62.

For Full Article, Search:
Hemmings Motor News: 1912 Henderson Model Awww.hemmings.com/hmn/stories/2008/11/01/hmn_feature20.html

 

Here's a much later Henderson, posted by alliance member DueceChevy on the thread,
"Photos taken before WW2 - history in black and white."



Here's a cool one. My grandpa in 1936 on his Henderson.

 

I am not particularly fond of Auction companys and Old Car Dealers but I like to follow them as the most interesting things show up. The following is from Tom Lafarriere Classic Cars in Rhode Island;

1934 Packard Rollston Town Car once owned by the Vanderbilts

I received a lead on what turned out to be a very exciting find. With some careful detective work, it turns out the Vanderbilt 1934 Packard Rollston Town Car has been sleeping very quietly for decades in Florida. Although a known car, its not been seen for quite sometime and many wondered of its location. To my knowledge, its the only known 1934 Packard Rollston.

A quick flight to Florida revealed this piece of Automotive and American History sitting quietly in a warehouse. I secured the deal with a family member and the car is now in Rhode Island.

My plans are to fully service the car and get it moving under its own power. I would like to see a museum get this car and I am hopeful that one of them will step up for it.

The number of original cars this guy finds is absolutely amazing.

First picture is as found.

Second picture is Tom Lafarriere proud of his find.

Third picture courtesy of Flickr.

Fourth and Fifth Picture Courtesy of this interesting discussion;

http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=364&forum=1&post_id=66984

 

First Picture

1934 Packard Town Car Factory Photo John Sollowey courtesy of Walter Millers Auto Literature

Second picture

1934 Packard Rollston town car, nine-tenths left side view, parked on street courtesy of

www.packardinfo.com

 

Well researching the Packard Towncar above, I stumbled onto this on;

http://www.daleadamsenterprises.com/daleshotrod.htm

1934 Packard V12 Hotrod

The drawing of the Packard shown below is an exciting project that Dale has planned to create for his personal use after he completes restoration on the 1108 Dietrich. This car will be based upon the 1108, but on a V12 Towncar chassis that was found in a field in Oklahoma and had no body. The chassis has been extended by 12 inches, and the extra 12 inches will be added to the hood. The top will be chopped to about 1/2 of the height of the original. Under the hood will be a massaged Packard V12 with twin superchargers. Its grand unveiling will be a year or two after the unveiling of the 1108, and it will not compete with the original in shows as it is not an original car. The full details of this car will not be released until the car is finished, but we can say that this "hotrod" will be like none other.

 

JOHNSON: Extinct?

Johnson Controls of Millwaukee still operates (See Link). What about the 1,000 vehicles they built between 1901 and 1912?




"From 1901 to 1912, the Johnson Electric Service Company manufactured an estimated 1,000 automotive vehicles, including cars, fire trucks, limousines and ambulances."

Read:
http://www.johnsoncontrols.com/publish/us/en/about/our_history/1885-1910.html

 

This picture of the Weymann bodied L29 Cord Coupe is courtesy of

www.stockphotopro.com

 

Here it is in the late 1950s.

 

Thanks AJ. The Cord has Kentucky plates in your pictures so that would make these pictures earlier.

Courtesy of Chris Summers, ACD Club Duesenberg Historian;

Natalie Kochmar of Fort Lee, New Jersey discovered these photos at an antique store in New York state, and generously agreed to share then with ACD club members. They appeared Issue number three for 2011. The pictures show the Weymann-bodied 1930 Cord L-29 Coupe. The back of two of the photos is labeled, "Cord with Weymann body owned by Herb Lozier" The back of another photo reads, in pencil, "My 2nd Cord L-29 1930 Weymann in a previous life (illegible) Also, Delage D-8 (illegible)."

These photos were apparently used as part of an article in Motorsport magazine in the 1950's. Herb Lozier was a professional model maker who lived in Brooklyn, New York. He wrote about model making too. One of his articles published in the ACD club newsletter described the super detailing of a Revell kit of the Cord 810 phaeton, one of the company's " Highway Pioneers Series. Josh Malks, the current ACD club newsletter editor saw this Cord when Herb owned it. He wasn't allowed to touch it, though.

The Cord was later sold to ACD club member Vincent Furnas of Kentucky. His story of how he towed the L-29 back from Brooklyn appeared in the ACD club newsletter too.

According to Antique Automobile magazine editor West Peterson, the L-29 was purchased in the early 1970's by a scout believed to be working on behalf of the Moraccan Royal family. It has not been seen on these shores since.

There is one more picture I will post later when Chris sends it to me.

 

More pics of the Weymann bodied L-29 Cord Coupe courtesy of the ACD club website;

http://forums.acdclub.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=4490&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

 

Weymann type fabric bodies were used on numerous British makes, among them Rover, Humber, Morris, Austin, Sunbeam, Rolls Royce as well as the Eurpoean makes.

From Popular Mechanics - 1924



http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/02/23/auto-bodies-made-of-fabric-end-squeaks-and-rattles/

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The King of Morocco also purchased/owned, and apparently drove, the Hemi powered 1954 DeSoto Adventurer II concept car, that eventually returned to US ownership.

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