History We ALL Love a DARE! PIX of TRULY Extinct Makes?

Hiya, Ray! Nice to see you back this way, especially with this rare bird! Wha'd they make before Hupp simply folded its tent and quit this last-ditch effort. I seem to remember it being no more than 5-600. Jim'll know, as well as about those quasi-fact/myths! LOL

You are surely right about this being a GREAT resto! Somebody not only put major bucks into it BUT a ton of love, quite apparently. Not to steal any of SunRoof's thunder, but I agree with him on the Skylark/Hollywood models: They were a very tasteful "adaptation" of the 810/12 design. Though some six inches shorter, it's not apparent from these pix! Very impressive, balanced car! The headlight scheme, too, is nicely done (though pods were on the way out). Given the Spirit of Motion take, I'm a tad surprised they didn't just meld them into the fenders (even Plymouth was doing it from '39 on). This seems like a conscious styling decision, IMO. And, though supplanting the Cord wraparound grille effect could have been easily botched, I believe Hupp/Graham did a more than respectable job. Even more amazing when we consider that the Hupp and Graham separate drive-trains were used! Credit for sheer EFFORT, but -- man! -- such a labor-intensive project could not have left much room for competetive unit cost, NOR PROFIT!

 

The Hupp in the the photos was found in pretty good condition. The owner/restorer showed a part of the car that had only been sanded down (part of the inner door panel that looked perfect to me) and said that most of the car was in the same condition when he got it.

I agree about the headlights and the fact that the Sharknose/Spirit of Motion Graham had already incorporated the headlights into the fenders. However, since the deal between Graham and Hupp was to make basically the same car, I guess they went with Hupp's design.

From what I've been able to find, there were fewer than 400 Hupmobiles and just over 2000 Graham Hollywoods made on the same "assembly" line. I spose it was more like a coachbuilding process than just assembly. It's too bad that it failed. And while the sedans are fairly attractive, the 2 and 4 passenger convertibles are really good-looking. I'd post a photo, but the only ones I have are poor-quality print media scans...and I'd prefer to post only photos that I shoot to avoid any possible copyright issues.

If I find any other interesting/rare vehicles, I'll be sure to post 'em.

 

When I was in High School I worked evenings at a film processor. We parked in the same lot as the commuters that road SP to the City to work. There was a white Hupe, same body style but with a louvered hood you could look into and see the built Merc. Pretty cool car I thought. Good old days.

 

401 Nailhead by any chance???

 

[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]1940 Hupmobile Skylark Convertible[/FONT]


[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]1939 Hupmobile Skylark Convertible


[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]1939 Graham 97 sc Convertible[/FONT]

From: www.classiccarcatalogue.com
[/FONT]

 

There is an auction today in Oakland where 4 Hollywoods are being sold. There are currently 1 known Hupp and 2 Hollywood convs known but there may be one or two others hiding somewhere.

 

AJ, SUPER interesting car! I was not aware Graham had a separate edition
from the Hollywood! Was Clipper the specific name of the convertible; is this
the only big difference between the two series. Or, is it also the mechanical
scheme, which does differ somewhat?

Clipper VS. Hollywood

199-CID L-head VS. 218-CID (Continental/Graham),
85 hp @3,800 w. downdraft carb VS. 120 @4,000 (presumably supercharged)
WB 115" (same for Clipper & Hollywood)





All this car under a grand??? Wow. And only for one year? Did they squeeze out a handful
for '41? I suppose they could call this model Clipper, since Packard didn't intro their Clipper
line 'til '41???

 

Jim,

I don't believe any Clippers were built. There was some interesting marketing going on at the time. The 3 passenger Conv which I posted was supposed to have a "semi-automatic" top according Graham Marketing literature (it does not). When they figured out they couldn't make any money using Cord dies to build the Hollywood everthing came to a halt.

 

Well, that answered a TON of questions, AJ. I surely respect the gang at Graham (and especially at Hupp) for trying 'til the bitter end. But, given the track rocords of both proud companies, I suppose we'd expect that, right?

Incidentally, one source I saw stated that about three dozen Hupp convertibles were built. Seems unlikely.

But that same source gave a figure of around 350 Skylarks built, and that seems closer.

 

This was a great find! Good to see it posted here.

 

There are two websites dedicated to the Graham Hollywoods and Hupp Skylarks;

www.hupmobileskylark.com or www.grahamhollywood.com

It's actually one website with two urls. Under Skylark production is an analysis of serial numbers and how many Skylarks were actually made. Roughly 393.

Depending on which article you read, production fiqures for both cars vary.

This excerpt from an article posted on page 35 of this thread about Ken Dunsires Graham Hollywood Convertible claims 1,860 Hollywoods and 354 Skylarks;

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Verdana]The Hollywood and Skylark were built on the same assembly line for three months. During the last week of July when 1940 production stopped, only 291 Hupps had gone down the assembly line. A few more were built for the 1941 model year for a total of 354 (including the hand-built cars of 1939). Hupmobile filed for bankruptcy in October, while Graham continued building its Hollywood through September with its 1941 models. But, like Hupp, Graham called it quits for automobile production, instead focusing its efforts on defense contracts and the opportunity to make a profit for the first time since 1933. [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Verdana]Just 1,860 Hollywoods were built during that five-month production run. It had been predicted – hoped – that production figures for the Graham Hollywood would reach 40,000 units, with half as many Skylarks to be built. The total number of "mass-produced" Skylark/Hollywoods built – 2,214 – didn't even equal the number of hand-made 810/812 Cords, which was fewer than 3,000 albeit during a two-year time span compared to Graham's frustrating five months.[/FONT]

 

I spent a couple of days going through 265 pages looking for info on a specific car, but saw nothing. I am looking for pixs of the Cornelian, made by the Blood Brothers Machine Co. of Kalamazoo, MI. There are some pixs of the Cornelian that was modified by Louis Chevrolet for the 1915 Indy 500, and some pixs of a mostly accurate replica of the racer on the net. The challenge is, does anyone have a pix or advertisement of a stock Cornelian? There were between 100 and 150 made, but there are no survivors believed to exist.

 

I have looked for nearly eight hours and found only a shaky suggestion that Howard Blood ( a son of one of the original brothers Blood) cooperated with Louis C. to develop the race version of the Cornelian. What was shaky, to me, was that it didn't actually SAY that there was a regular passenger-car edition that preceded the racer. MrFire mentioned on another thread that there are several Cornelian racers in existence, and a German torpedo sent one to the bottom of the Atlantic on its way shipboard to a MidEast oil prince (so, we KNOW where that one is!). The only racers I know of are in the Indy Speedway museum, and there's one at Speedy Bill's museum in Lincoln, NE. But, they are both numbered 27, so is one (are BOTH) replicas?

At any rate, from what I could glean, sounds as if the racers are ultra-rare, and the passenger version of these little cyclecars is a no-show today -- maybe EXTINCT.



Louis Chevrolet in the Cornelian (albeit numbered for another event), THANKS to HAMBer JimDillon!

 

From www.motorsnaps.com

Cornelian

Blood Brothers Machine Company. Kalamazoo, Allegan, Michigan.

The Blood Brothers had already made a car under their own name from 1902 to 1906, and in 1914 they returned to the automobile business, this time with a cyclecar which they called the Cornelian. It had a 1688cc 13 hp 4 cylinder Sterling engine, shaftdrive and, very unusual for the time, integral construction and independent rear suspension. Introduced at the New York Automobile Show in January 1914, it was priced at $435. An encouraging number of orders led the brothers to move from Kalamazoo to a new factory at Allegan, which they occupied in March 1915. A Cornelian gained a lot of publicity when Louis Chevrolet drove one in the 1915 Indianapolis 500 Mile Race, the smallest engined car to race there. However, this did not help sales, and Cornelian production ended in October 1915, after only about 100 had been made.

The following caption goes with the black and white 3/4 picture below; Louis Chevrolet, pictured here, designed the Cornelian racecar, which was manufactured by the Blood Brothers.

Louis is not pictured, just the race car.

 

By Charlotte Weick ... Advance Newspapers ... July 20, 2009

Auto racing is in the blood of Allegan County

Time travelers on the Allegan County Heritage Trail may find out that the county history can be a bit racy. The City of Allegan's colorful past includes part of the automotive industry's history.

In the 1900s, the Blood Brothers Machine Company in Kalamazoo held the patent on the universal joint. In 1915, the brothers relocated their plant to Allegan and became a major employer in the area. The Blood Brothers partnered with the Chevrolet brothers to develop a groundbreaking new type of racing automobile, which they named the Cornelian.

On the Heritage trail CD, Allegan Historian John Pahl tells the story of the Cornelian and the ill-fated car #13.

"The Cornelian was a small, racy looking job with bicycle tires--way ahead of its time," Pahl said.

The Cornelian, the smallest chain-driven race car at that time, was powered with a Sterling engine and featured a welded unibody and independent front suspension. It weighed less than 1,000 pounds and had an early version of rack and pinion steering. The Blood Brothers manufactured the Cornelian from 1914 through 1916, but made less than 100 of the cars.

While the Cornelian was a revolutionary vehicle in its day, the racecar had some drawbacks, Pahl said. Because of the frame's construction, it was difficult to mesh the gears properly if a heavy person rode in the vehicle.
he Swiss born Louis Chevrolet had high expectations when he raced a Cornelian in the 1915 Indy 500, qualifying for the race by achieving a speed of 81.010 miles per hour. He never finished the Indy 500, because the Cornelian broke a valve during the 77th lap and he came in at 20th place. Chevrolet's Cornelian #27 is now on display at the Indy 500 Museum of American Speed.

There are few other Cornelian racecars in existence but #13 also found a permanent home.

"They should have known better than to name a car #13," Pahl said.
The car was originally sold to a Kalamazoo man before it suffered mechanical problems and the man returned the car. The car was fixed and later sold to a Grand Rapids man, who was also unhappy with it and returned the car.

"An oil rich sheik liked that racy little car," Pahl said. In 1915, #13 was transported by rail to New York and placed on a ship bound for the Middle East, from where in never returned.
When a German submarine torpedoed the ship, the car eventually settled at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean.

Although the Cornelian never achieved the success anticipated by the Blood and Chevrolet brothers, all of the brothers went on to achieve fame. The Blood Brothers founded the Blood Brothers Federal Credit Union in 1945, which later became the Allegan Federal Community Credit Union. Through a series of mergers in 1975, Blood Brothers became part of Rockwell International, which is in the business of manufacturing aircrafts for the U.S. Air Force. The Allegan Rockwell plant closed down in 1991.

Louis Chevrolet founded the Chevrolet Motor Car Company, which was later acquired by General Motors. The Chevrolet brothers remain legendary figures in the history of racing, automobile design and the automotive industry.

 

From a recent Auction;

1950's Custom, red/fiberglass. Interesting fiberglass bodied ''special'', 1950s vintage, for restoration, odometer shows 63,854 miles.

 

From same Auction;

1950s Custom, grey. Extremely rough, no motor, very incomplete, sitting outdoors for years.

 

QUOTE: From what I could glean, sounds as if the racers are ultra-rare, and the passenger version of these little cyclecars is a no-show today -- maybe EXTINCT.

-------------------------------------------------------

I WOULD BE REMISS IF I DIDN'T CLARIFY THAT ONE SOURCE DID STATE (though without any supporting data) THAT CORNELIANS WERE BUILT IN 1913, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN BEFORE LOUIS CHEVROLET GOT INVOLVED. THOSE, PRESUMABLY, WOULD HAVE BEEN THE PASSENGER VERSIONS.

IN ALL CANDOR, I FIND IT EASY TO BELIEVE THAT THE BLOOD GROUP WERE, INDEED, MAKING SOMETHING TO COMPETE IN THE NEW-FANGLED "CYCLECAR" MARKET, AND HOWARD BLOOD SAW AN OPPORTUNITY TO GARNER SUCCESS, OR AT LEAST GOOD PUBLICITY -- AND HE ACCOMPLISHED THE LATTER, CERTAINLY. LIKE SO MANY EARLY MAKES, THE ORDERS DID OVERPOWER THE COMPANY'S ABILITY TO BUILD IN A TIMELY WAY.

AND, GOOD OR NOT, BY THE MID-TEENS, HENRY FORD WAS PURPOSELY PRICING THE CYCLECARS OUT OF THE MARKET.

 

CORNELIAN:

The Blood brothers had been producing the Cornelian since 1913.

The car was successfully raced in 1914, but not with Chevrolet at the wheel, in a 100mile race with a driver who, allegedly, had not driven the car prior to race day.

Cornelian was nearing its "use by" date when Louis Chevrolet was hired to drive the car in the 1915 Indy.

Chevrolet is reputed to have made some modifications to the car.

To qualify for the Indy a car had to achieve a lap at an average 81mph. The 103 Cu. in. Stirling motor, as used in the Cornelian, is said to have left the car underpowered. Louis Chevrolet was not a jockey sized driver and his weight disadvantage added to the probability the car may not reach the speed necessary to qualify for Indy. It appears that Chevrolet drove the car in warm-up, then dismounted to allow Joe Boyer to qualify the car.

PS - Stirling was making good motors and various Stirling motors with various modifications were doing well in speed boats of the era.

PPS - Joe Boyer makes for an interesting read, too.

 

1913 SUNBEAM 25/30:

A rare, but, not quite extinct.

Following is an interesting article on one of possibly two surviving Sunbeam 25/30's.



"Col Crawford's Phil Ward with Ron Sevenoaks, who has restored a rare 1913 Sunbeam, and his son Hamish Sevenoaks.Picture: VIRGINIA YOUNG ~PP408562"

The article:

http://manly-daily.whereilive.com.au/news/story/history-hits-the-road-again/

............................................

The Sunbeam has since gone to Auction:

http://www.shannons.com.au/auctions/lot/?id=UW61T60BB744HCA9

HISTORY (from the auction site):

"The 1913 Sunbeam Tourer on offer is one of only two 25/3Ohp Sunbeams known to exist from a production run of 50 cars built between 1911 and 1914. Chassis number '5381' was imported into Australia in October1913 by Brisbane agents, McGhee's and bodied locally with tourer coachwork by Peel Ltd. Its first owner was a Brisbane doctor. In the 1940s the Sunbeam was sold to a collector north of Brisbane. In the 1950s the Guthrie family who owned a motor repair and retail business in Brisbane took over ownership. The car's next owner was George Gilltrap, of Coolangatta, proprietor of a popular motor museum at Currumbin on the Gold coast who acquired it together with two other veteran-era Sunbeams.
In the early 1960s, Gilltrap sold the three Sunbeams to Faris Palfreyman the then chairman of Elders IXL and a prolific collector of Rolls-Royces who had assembled a collection of around 25 veteran and vintage Rolls-Royce Silver Ghosts. Many had been reduced to rolling chassis state and the Sunbeams - a brace of 16/2Ohp fours and the 25/3Ohp six:- were viewed as an ideal source of suitable period coachwork. In 1966, the Sunbeams original body was removed and fitted to a 1913 Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost, which is currently owned by David Berthon, One of the smaller Sunbeams met the same fate and then all three were passed on to George Sevenoaks to sell. The two fours were quickly disposed of to other enthusiasts but George kept the 25/30, which in 1964 was given to his son, Ron the current vendor as a birthday present.
'5381' remained in storage until 2000 when work started on a complete restoration. The mechanical aspects of the rebuild were entrusted to former Rolls-Royce mechanic, Alex Brown, while a new tourer body was constructed by Les and David Robinson in Canberra. Finally completed in 2005, the car was subsequently test-driven by David Berthon for Unique Cars magazine.
Presented in stunning condition throughout, '5381' constitutes a wonderful opportunity to acquire a car representing the pinnacle of engineering excellence in the Edwardian era, its survival and continuing use testifying to the quality of workmanship used in its production. Currently on Historic registration which is not transferable.

............................."

..........................................................

OF PARTICULAR INTEREST, from the history, IS:

"....... Chassis number '5381' was imported into Australia in October1913 by Brisbane agents, McGhee's and bodied locally with tourer coachwork by Peel Ltd. ......

..... In 1966, the Sunbeams original body was removed and fitted to a 1913 Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost, which is currently owned by David Berthon, ........"

THEN:



"Silver Ghost still alive after 100 years



David Berthon
June 7, 2007"

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/silver-ghost-still-alive-after-100-years-20070607-1418m.html.

...........................................................

I assume, and I will stand corrected, that the RR Silver Ghost, in the photo, is wearing the Peel Ltd touring body that was originally fitted to the Sunbeam.

Soooooooooo, as I am on record on this and other threads with my opinion on "restorations" ............

Is the Sunbeam a restoration or recreation or rebody or or or???????

Is the RR Silver Ghost a restoration or recreation or rebody or or or???????


Can both be restorations? If so, why, how etc.?

 

My 2 cents: I've always defined restoring anything as putting it back as close as humanly possible to the state in which it was issued originally.

 

This could get into a sticky discussion.
A friend of mine is restoring a Corvair Spyder Convertible.
This car was in very bad shape, but it was once owned by Carl Sagan so he wanted to do it and do it right. Dennis Dorogi is doing the restoration, and he has avoided replacement body panels instead restoring rotted out panels saving as much of the original metal as possible.
The progress is cataloged here:
http://rides.webshots.com/album/233356382dqYpqr

On the other hand, I know of another person who restores, or possibly re-creates some very vintage cars. Marmon, Nash, Franklin, and many others.
He starts with whatever he can find of an original. But seeing as how all these cars were originally coachbuilt and very few of them alike, he re-bodies them.
He is a body coachbuilder in his own right, with his english wheels and patience I would never have. For missing components like brackets, and handles, even windshield frames, he carves them out of wood, makes a mold, and casts his own. He is a true artisan. But is he restoring?
I would say yes.
As these vehicles he does were too far gone, and no original parts available.

 

It can be hard to draw the line between a reconstruction and a restoration, usually it's the rarity of a part or the cost between repairing and fabricating that dictates what to do.
I say that because I deal with customers and untill now if I tell them to fix this body panel it's gonna be 100 hours but to make one 50, until now they all go for the repop. Plus sometimes the fixed panel is not gonna be as clean as a rebuild one. But I always try to save as much as I can.

 

The aluminum fenders of Jim Stecker's '31Jordan Speedway Ace-Z were gone when he finally acquired it. Rather than using similar fenders, he had new ones fabbed using original photos of the car. By my definition, he did the best humanly possible to put the car back to its original state. He was just trying to replicate the look.

Another (rather wild) resto that pops to mind is the supposedly sole Stafford, possibly once owned, hotrodded, stripped down for a sort of truck by Harry Truman. When the current owner (coincidentally named Stafford) found it, he had to recreate th body without knowing exactly what body style Harry had started with (or EVEN if it was Harry's car for certain). It's now gorgeous, but is it a restoration? That one is hard to nail, even using my simple definition!

 

BTW, SWI, when found, did Carl Sagan's Corvair leak BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of oil droplets on the driveway?

 

I dunno about Carl Sagan's Corvair, but mine sure did. I loved the car, but it was a 4-wheeled oil spill. I must be a glutton for punishment, because I have a Camaro that does the same thing now.

 

Me too. I have a '77 Vette that has the steady drip PS fluid through the steering cylinders and a little oil too.

 

CORNELIAN:



Found in Allegan Michigan.

http://metaldetectingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53019

.........................................

New York Times article from 4 January 1914:

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0913FB345F13738DDDAD0894D9405B848DF1D3

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=FA0913FB345F13738DDDAD0894D9405B848DF1D3

Cornelian was on "Stand C18".

...........................

BOSTON EVENING TRANSCRIPT - 5 January 1914:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...J&pg=6349,787273&dq=cornelian+cycle+car&hl=en

There is mention of "The CORNELIAN,a new arrival at this show, is of the cycle car variety with a two speed gearset and narrow tread."

...............................

The DAY - 2 March 1915 -

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AIBAJ&pg=1550,241296&dq=louis+chevrolet&hl=en

"Louis Chevrolet, the most sensational of all American racing drivers, .... race at the wheel of a Cornelian. ....."

............................................

The TORONTO SUNDAY WORLD - 25 march 1915 -

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...IBAJ&pg=1756,5463389&dq=louis+chevrolet&hl=en

Louis Chevrolet returned to Detroit Wednesday morning and left for Allegan Mich., to

conclude arrangements to drive the Cornellian. ... earlier announcements were rather premature.

.......................
The NEW YORK TIMES - 13 May 1915 -

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F40912FC3E5A15738DDDAA0994DD405B858DF1D3

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F40912FC3E5A15738DDDAA0994DD405B858DF1D3

Louis Chevrolet and the Cornelian arrive...

............................................



The CHICAGO DAILY TRIBUNE - 16 May 1915 -

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/382512521.html?dids=382512521:382512521&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=May+16%2C+1915&author=&pub=Chicago+Tribune&desc=News+Notes+and+Gossip+of+the+Auto+World&pqatl=google

"LOUIS CHEVROLET America's greatest racing sensation, has arrived on the scene of the next Indianapolis 500 mile race with the Queerest car the world has ever seen, a Cornelian."

................................

The Crawfordsville Review - 22 June 1915 -

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...=1915+indianapolis+race+louis+chevrolet&hl=en

.........................................

NOT about Cornelian, Louis Chevrolet is at work on a car for 1916 -

The MILWAUKEE Journal - 28 November 1915 -

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...=1915+indianapolis+race+louis+chevrolet&hl=en

.................................

CORNELIAN : http://everything2.com/title/Cornelian

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=3zQuAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA268&lpg=PA268&dq=cornelian+light+car&source=bl&ots=xDDfjrMM9h&sig=YV2lQ1w0rjGBU0XnwJEBGylESs0&hl=en&ei=u0klToadO4LqgQeImZXcDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CGIQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=cornelian%20light%20car&f=false